Opposing Thoughts and Practices on Bonsai for Beginners

[Lorax7]

Most importantly, don’t listen to blow hards who want to bully you into adopting their conforming mantras.

Psychologists have a word for what you’re doing here. It’s called “projection”.

 

[sorce]

@LAS don't you love how the fearful always add "phobic" to talk then claim about how we project?

Sorce

 

[rockm]

It appears that some people are trying to say that if you don’t do it their way you are an idiot. Ignore them. Truth is chloramine/chlorine is bad for microbial/fungal growth. If you think that the levels in tap water are negligible, then use tap water. If you want to do everything you can to maximize microbial/fungal growth, remove chlorine/chloramine. It’s your choice. If you have strong mycelial growth and you use tap water with chloramine, it would be stronger without chloramine. Do whatever you want. Most importantly, don’t listen to blow hards who want to bully you into adopting their conforming mantras.

Uh, no, no one is calling anyone an idiot. No one is bullying anyone. Those are your words. Those who don't adhere to your "alternative" theory are showing you evidence that it's mostly wrong and misleading. Post some actual evidence of what you're saying. I have seen repeated, documented evidence otherwise. Chlorine and chloramines have an impact, but that impact is not big and soil recovers.

From that repeated proof and personal first-hand evidence over a few decades, I can say using tap water with chlorine and chloramines is of little consequence. No-- using water without both won't produce a noticeable stronger microbial response. If you want to prove us wrong, produce evidence to the contrary. I've seen extremely strong myc growth in many many trees after repeated repottings over a long period of time.

Most importantly, calling people "blowhards" and adopting a persecution complex won't change things.

 

[penumbra]

exactly what I expect from you, which is why I normally have you on ignore

The irony is delicious.

 

[LAS]

I've always used tap water for my trees (30 years worth). Water Has chlorine, chloramine, etc. I have myc in oaks, pines, hornbeams. Oaks have mushroom growth every spring/summer into fall, as do the hornbeam. Pic below shows some of the latest 'shrooms on a live oak...Mushrooms are the surface expression of myc growth in the soil. At repotting all have extensive myc webbing in their root masses (LOTS OF IT

The irony is delicious.

this is gold.

 

[LAS]

Except "not toxic to plants" can be perfectly true yet still not the point.

Not everyone, actually quite few people are relying on the microbes that it does kill.

Those not relying on those microbes won't notice (only because it's deeply layered) their loss.

Those relying on those microbes will.....maybe.

Proof of mycorrhizae, loads of it in fact, maybe because so much is necessary to go out searching for the nitrogen left unavailable because of the death of the microbes.

Depends how you read it.

I don't claim to know everything about the subject because it's study is infant.

These claims of "proof" are terribly unscientific.

Sorce

Spot on.

 

[LAS]

Uh, no, no one is calling anyone an idiot. No one is bullying anyone. Those are your words. Those who don't adhere to your "alternative" theory are showing you evidence that it's mostly wrong and misleading. Post some actual evidence of what you're saying. I have seen repeated, documented evidence otherwise. Chlorine and chloramines have an impact, but that impact is not big and soil recovers.

From that repeated proof and personal first-hand evidence over a few decades, I can say using tap water with chlorine and chloramines is of little consequence. No-- using water without both won't produce a noticeable stronger microbial response. If you want to prove us wrong, produce evidence to the contrary. I've seen extremely strong myc growth in many many trees after repeated repottings over a long period of time.

Most importantly, calling people "blowhards" and adopting a persecution complex won't change things.

absolutely zero of what i said is misleading. And, its not my theory. You do whatever you want. Im not a victim. More bull that you make up. Just becuase you say there is no appreciable diff in your mycellium doesnt mean there is none. so do whatever you want. Im glad you only want your trees to reach 95% of their potential. Some of us are after the extra 5%

 

[LAS]

Psychologists have a word for what you’re doing here. It’s called “projection”.

So this isnt bullying???? Portraying me as someone who needs a Psychiatrist isnt defamatory? or asking if im aware that people dont water their trees with straight undiluted chloramine? GTFO.

 

[LAS]

@LAS don't you love how the fearful always add "phobic" to talk then claim about how we project?

Sorce

When you got nothing else, you go after the persons integrity. Its typical. Says alot about the person.

 

[August44]

I am 4 years into this with no club close and no one else in my area practicing. I recently signed up for Mirai and that is a huge help. I also have a bonsai friend from this forum that I have never met that continually helps me with face-to-face calls and regular calls that are very helpful. If you can find an experienced person to be a mentor to you, you will do much better IMO. Don't be afraid to ask them seemingly simple, stupid questions BEFORE you do something. I failed to do that last winter and about ruined most of my collected spruce. It would have been so simple to just ask. Best of luck to you!

 

[Calnicky]

If any beginners are still here after the above firestorm:

I would say the two absolutely BEST things I did for my practice was (1) Find a group to study with. I'm a member of Puget Sound Bonsai Assn and they have been super good about promoting study groups. The chance to have access to club members with different levels of expertise was GOLD. I know several of them cringed when I did something stupid with my trees...but everyone was so nice and so supportive. I ended up having a group in my garage once a month (super convenient!) and we stayed at it for 2 or 3 years until I had to move too far away. We had about 8 members on the books but only 4 or 5 usually showed up on any given evening. Find a club! Find other folks who do bonsai! Heck, when I moved to my current small town, I went and banged on the door of someone who had a couple trees in the yard. I asked him to form a study group with me but he said he was too busy with work (shoot!).

(2) If you can afford the Mirai Live membership the videos are TOP quality and you'll learn a lot while being super intimidated that you'll ever have near the knowledge and expertise of Ryan Neal (at least I am still). He practices bonsai at a supremely high level but there is so much to learn there.

Good luck! Keep it green!

 

[_#1_]

Im glad you only want your trees to reach 95% of their potential. Some of us are after the extra 5%

With all due respect, your argument, and Scorce too, is quite shallow. You want your trees at 100% potential? Put it in a 100% controlled environment so the tree can grow in perfect ambient air temp, humidity, air movements, sun exposure and water for the particular species of tree. Water is just 1 aspect of the big picture. And where's the proof these chemicals causes such huge negative effect?

Anyways, as mentioned by your nemesis, proof is in the pudding lol. One can site info from anywhere but until proof is shown from experiments, it's just heresay no?

 

[LAS]

With all due respect, your argument, and Scorce too, is quite shallow. You want your trees at 100% potential? Put it in a 100% controlled environment so the tree can grow in perfect ambient air temp, humidity, air movements, sun exposure and water for the particular species of tree. Water is just 1 aspect of the big picture. And where's the proof these chemicals causes such huge negative effect?

Anyways, as mentioned by your nemesis, proof is in the pudding lol. One can site info from anywhere but until proof is shown from experiments, it's just heresay no?

I appreciate what you are saying very much. I was just speaking about chloramines. Not all the other aspects. I will unsuscribe from this thread to avoid further waste of everyones energy.

 

[Paradox]

It takes a lot of effort, work and time to maintain a bonsai collection. I don't know why someone would want to do something to add to that work for no real reason whatsoever.

Pretty sure Mach5, Brian Van Fleet, Adair, and Bill Valvanis, all of which pursue bonsai to the highest level and have top notch trees that are better than pretty much anyone else here, don't remove chlorine / chloramine from their water source.

But if you want to go though the extra effort and waste your time and money doing that, it's your choice. Still going to think you're crazy for thinking it's necessary and doing that but that's my choice

 

[ZombieNick]

I came in this thread ready to share my experience as a beginner and instead found pages of chloramine arguments. Would have been cool if you just started your own thread instead of derailing OP's.

 

[sorce]

@ZombieNick wouldn't realizing the path to the end of opposition be more relevant to the thread than say.......

Not sharing your experience because you, not the thread, were derailed, but still posted in derailment, content that can't help but be derailing? Or worse.... irrelevant?

This is why that thread about "titles that make you fight" is kinda irrelevant, cuz the best beef grows.......

Where there's no god damn chloramine in the grass!

Sorce

 

[ZombieNick]

@ZombieNick wouldn't realizing the path to the end of opposition be more relevant to the thread than say.......

Absolutely yes, but I didn't feel like writing the paragraphs I planned to knowing no beginner is going to sit through reading 5 pages of chlorine argument to get to my lowly response. So I guess I am the problem here.

 

[Srt8madness]

Great laughs. Did we figure out the difference between a psychologist and psychiatrist yet? Bullying? Please, save the victim card for Facebook.

Just to spell it out, crystal clear for you - saying you're engaging in projection, is not the same as saying you need a psychiatrist. Though by your reaction...

So this isnt bullying???? Portraying me as someone who needs a Psychiatrist isnt defamatory? or asking if im aware that people dont water their trees with straight undiluted chloramine? GTFO.

 

[ZombieNick]

I would love to get input from those of you who have been doing Bonsai for sometime now. When you first started out, did you learn by reading, experimenting on nursery stock, both or other avenues ?

I am finding that there are different perspectives and beliefs on this and some with more rigid guidelines. I have found that some people get upset when you do something to a tree that may not have been very successful for some. One of the things that I’ve heard is once you start doing Bonsai, you should not wire for at least 1 to 2 years into your journey. Ect…

Personally I have combined reading, seeking wisdom from those with more experience as well as hands-on. I have definitely done work on a tree that I thought was a risk, but I did it in the spirit of learning and was very hopeful for the success of the tree. My thought is obviously with practice you’re going to have some loss and failures. Of course we all set out to be successful and preserve tree life but in evolving and growing, sometimes we push boundaries and “rules” that are upsetting to some. I have found that some think strictly black-and-white, where others lean on the side of creative and experimenting. And also some combine the two thought processes for doing bonsai. I have found people who do more traditional Bonsai and those who are more creative clashing on how they approach those of us just learning.

Just curious on your perspectives on how one proceeds to learn as we sort through the different practices and not offend those with different approaches?

I have never heard that about wiring, I was always told to practice, practice, practice. My experience is similar to yours, I started with lots of online stuff, then clubs, and now I finally have an instructor to take classes under regularly (which, for me, has helped tremendously). You are very close to me, are you in any local clubs?

 

[sorce]

Absolutely yes, but I didn't feel like writing the paragraphs I planned to knowing no beginner is going to sit through reading 5 pages of chlorine argument to get to my lowly response. So I guess I am the problem here.

Type it!

Only real knowledge seekers matter and they make it this far.

Sorce