Pinching Vance Wood: the challenge

[michaelj]

As to michaelj: Not that you deserve an answer here is what I think any way. No matter what I do, no matter what I post, not matter how detailed, no matter how well produced, it would not be good enough for you. Let me see some of your Junipers.

I thought "I will be working on some more trees and will I hope be able to demonstrate more clearly what I am talking about" meant that you actually wanted to "demonstrate more clearly what [you are] talking about." I didn't know that immediately after you posted that you decided to pick up your ball and go home. But you're wrong. A couple of photos so we could actually, you know, SEE what it is you're doing would be a lot more informative. Adair's photos told a much clearer story than your video that showed you pinching off shoots behind the visual shield of the canopy. But if you don't want to, no big. Frankly, I didn't think you owed anyone the video you did, and I crack up on all y'all when you're demanding that people post photos and videos and acting like people owe you the courtesy of taking the time record a demo and post it online.

Why would I show my junipers here? I'm not one of the ones claiming that people should follow my technique. I'm one of the ones trying to decide which advice to take.

I don't really care what people believe at this point.

My trees do not look like that regardless what mj says in his ultimate wisdom.

It is quite apparent from your posts and your videos that it is in your nature to care a lot about what other people believe. Oddly enough, you sometimes get pissed off about people believing things that they don't actually believe. If you go back and look at this thread and the other, you'll find that I haven't said one critical word about the appearance of your junipers, nor have I criticized your technique; I only observed that I can't make out exactly what you're doing by looking at the video. Oh, and I laughed at your vocal imitations, but surely you must have intended, or at least expected people to do that.

 

[Vance Wood]

I love to learn new things that are useful to me. New things that are not, I do not adopt just because every body else does. I don't reject something just because I am stubborn, there are things that I come across that I grab onto. At some point I picked up the technique of thinning the interior of the tree, that of course takes the scissors, but that does not mean I have to rule out pinching, just because someone says it's bad. If people are defining pinching as the way you believe Bjorn defined it as Ripping and tearing I can understand what your issue is but that's not what I do. To me pinching is the process of getting the profile to conform tip by tip one at a time. I know it is an easy thing to accuse me of being too old to learn something new but that too is untrue. You don't know me you don't know how my approach to bonsai has changed over the years and why those changes took place.

 

[Vance Wood]

Let's look at six words: WHAT DO YOU WANT ME TO DO?????

 

[Vance Wood]

I thought "I will be working on some more trees and will I hope be able to demonstrate more clearly what I am talking about" meant that you actually wanted to "demonstrate more clearly what [you are] talking about." I didn't know that immediately after you posted that you decided to pick up your ball and go home. But you're wrong. A couple of photos so we could actually, you know, SEE what it is you're doing would be a lot more informative. Adair's photos told a much clearer story than your video that showed you pinching off shoots behind the visual shield of the canopy. But if you don't want to, no big. Frankly, I didn't think you owed anyone the video you did, and I crack up on all y'all when you're demanding that people post photos and videos and acting like people owe you the courtesy of taking the time record a demo and post it online.

Why would I show my junipers here? I'm not one of the ones claiming that people should follow my technique. I'm one of the ones trying to decide which advice to take.





It is quite apparent from your posts and your videos that it is in your nature to care a lot about what other people believe. Oddly enough, you sometimes get pissed off about people believing things that they don't actually believe. If you go back and look at this thread and the other, you'll find that I haven't said one critical word about the appearance of your junipers, nor have I criticized your technique; I only observed that I can't make out exactly what you're doing by looking at the video. Oh, and I laughed at your vocal imitations, but surely you must have intended, or at least expected people to do that.

In reply to mj: Why would you show your Junipers here? Just to prove you have them. I don't care what they look like just that they are significant in their presence not lack of it. Your statement is the first thing I can recall you posting that was remotely kind, thank you. Frankly, I didn't think you owed anyone the video you did, and I crack up on all y'all when you're demanding that people post photos and videos and acting like people owe you the courtesy of taking the time record a demo and post it online.

 

[michaelj]

I fail to see how proving I have junipers matters here, but I'll tell you what, if it makes you happy, I'll take some pictures tonight or tomorrow of my junipers. Ain't nobody learning a thing by looking at my junipers, though. I've had most of them for two years or less and most of them are just being grown out.

 

[Vance Wood]

Michaelj we have had people around here that have boasted great things and had nothing. When someone comes along and suggests or demands that I prove my point I feel I am justified in making them prove that they at least have a bonsai or two. I after all do not want to be arguing bonsai with someone who only does car washes if you get my point.

 

[M. Frary]

atter? hare and there? When you call out others for typos that aren't even errors and suggest that they go back to 6th grade and get GEDs, you should probably put ms in your matters and more than one e in your heres first.

Figured I would spell like everyone else. Did you catch the drift?

 

[Vance Wood]

Here is another Pinching Clipping Video. I hope you are able to see more and in a week or two we will revisit this little guy and look for brown ends.

 

[Adair M]

I got a response back from Haruyosi!

My question:

"Do you pinch with your fingers? Or only use scissors?"

His response:

"I mainly use scissors and at last use fingers a little".

So, Vance, it appears he does pinch "a little". Of course, the definition of "a little" is highly subjective. But does appear his primary method is using scissors.

 

[Vance Wood]

I suppose we should both feel vindicated but in the scheme of things I suppose neither of us is likely to change what we do because we are successful with what we do. Most of my problems do not reside in how I do what I do but in the tendency to run out of gas doing it. Also known as lazy.

 

[coh]

I got a response back from Haruyosi!

My question:

"Do you pinch with your fingers? Or only use scissors?"

His response:

"I mainly use scissors and at last use fingers a little".

So, Vance, it appears he does pinch "a little". Of course, the definition of "a little" is highly subjective. But does appear his primary method is using scissors.

So, it sounds like he does exactly what Vance did in his video, right? Glad it's resolved!

Now we can move on to arguing what "a little" means. 2%? 5%? 10%?

 

[Vance Wood]

I don't really care. At least I no longer feel compelled to defend myself simply because I am considered by the standards around the bonsai community as uneducated. Therefore every thing I say and do is considered suspect, especially when it seems to be in conflict with some of the teaching floating around at the moment. If that is paranoid then so be it.

 

[Adair M]

Oh no! I am completely defeated! Hagedorn, Neil, Boon, Bjorn are all complete fools!

I have a new mentor now! And he posts "How To" videos on You Tube! For Free!

Now, I've seen the light!

 

[PierreR]

Dear Lord, that was painful! It looks like a dogs ass with a nasty case of mange! Wow! That's some kinda ugly!

 

[amcoffeegirl]

I don't really care. At least I no longer feel compelled to defend myself simply because I am considered by the standards around the bonsai community as uneducated. Therefore every thing I say and do is considered suspect, especially when it seems to be in conflict with some of the teaching floating around at the moment. If that is paranoid then so be it.

E'rybody's suspect--> but who's the police round here
The great news is whether people pinch or clip you have gotten folks focused on their trees. Watching how others care for their trees is very helpful and that cannot be denied. It has been proven without a doubt here.

 

[Vance Wood]

As to the video you put up. You have to give the guy credit. being able to continue with the onslaught of an ice cream truck is an inspiration to all of us videographers in training. What he does to this Juniper is wrong and I think everyone here knows it. It is an example of taking the other tact on our discussion, me pinching and you shearing to the extereme where he makes the statement you can almost mow the pads down. One could argue that what you guys do is akin to this technique and I know that it is not. This is probably why this Juniper looks the way it does. The technique lacks commitment and finesse, to do a job correctly and finely. We had a Juniper in our show this weekend where the owner had done just that to shorten the growth down to almost nothing. This was done on a couple of Junipers.

 

[f1pt4]

Vance thanks for your video(s), Adair for your photos, and everyone else for chiming in, for better or worse. Just a question, please be kind, I'm fairly new to all this, but can I thin a Hinoki Cypress similarly to a Juniper with scale foliage? If I'm not mistaken they don't back bud as readily (or at all?) as junipers. I pinched the tips on the Hinoki during it's initial styling, as suggested by someone waaaay more advanced then me, and almost no brown tips two months later. Sorry for the hijack, but thanks for any responses.

 

[Adair M]

Hinoki are a different animal. Yes, those you do pinch! Actually closer to the old "grip and rip"!

 

[f1pt4]

Hinoki are a different animal. Yes, those you do pinch! Actually closer to the old "grip and rip"!

Cool. thanks. i done did somthin right! I'm going to take some photos this weekend (hopefully) of some of my twigs, start a new thread and continue about it there.

 

[michaelj]

Here is another Pinching Clipping Video. I hope you are able to see more and in a week or two we will revisit this little guy and look for brown ends.

I think that's more like what people were expecting to see after the grand buildup. You blocked the view with your hands a few times, but that was probably hard to avoid. All in all, this video showed what people wanted to see. And after all that, I think your technique isn't meaningfully different from Adair's. So when you pinch, you are pinching to a joint, yes? Essentially, unless I'm missing something (and I'm sure someone will be quite to point it out if I am) you're doing the same thing with your fingernails that the "don't pinch" crowd would be doing with their scissors.

Oh no! I am completely defeated! Hagedorn, Neil, Boon, Bjorn are all complete fools!

That's a bit harsh. I don't think Charles is trying to be the alternative to Bjorn or Boon. His videos are geared more toward beginners. And I've seen some of his trees. He actually has quite a few very good trees, even if this one looks a bit like a jiangsu penjing.