planting on a tile help

[brewmeister83]

Hi all,

So I've decided to give native willow a try as bonsai material and rooted a few cuttings in a glass of water with a couple drops of superthrive over the past couple of weeks. I'm going to plant them in the ground and train them as bonsai material from day one, but given how the ground completely freezes up here in New England during the winter, how deep should I dig them in if I'm planning to plant them on top of a tile? Any suggestions?

 

[JudyB]

Native willow will be cold hardy in your area. Hence the term native... You shouldn't have to do anything special just because it's on a tile. If your concern is for the tile, try using a concrete paver. That's what I do.

 

[brewmeister83]

Native willow will be cold hardy in your area. Hence the term native... You shouldn't have to do anything special just because it's on a tile. If your concern is for the tile, try using a concrete paver. That's what I do.

Ok, just wasn't sure if you needed to plant it deeper because it's something "man-made" and not soil beneath it. Considering you're in Ohio, the concrete paver should work just fine out here since we basically get the same weather - or are you too far south to get the lake effect snow?

 

[lordy]

The concern may be because of the concrete-like soil conditions in CT in very early spring. In that event, I would consider waiting until the big thaw. Then, plant on top of a 12" tile or piece of plywood or some other flat object. I have heard of people going to the dollar store and buying cheap plates to plant on top of.

 

[brewmeister83]

I have heard of people going to the dollar store and buying cheap plates to plant on top of.

OMG!!!! I had that same thought today during work after I made the initial post! ROFL!

 

[Poink88]

OMG!!!! I had that same thought today during work after I made the initial post! ROFL!

That should work. What I use is just plain plastic sheeting (w/o any holes). You do not need a super hard material...just something the root cannot penetrate.

Not sure why people make it so much more difficult.

 

[TheSteve]

because water can pool on plastic sheeting and in time roots will penetrate it once it becomes brittle. Exactly how long have you been ground growing? Sometimes people make it "more complicated" because that's what works. I'm beginning to remember why I left the forums....


if you use a dinner plate.... remember to turn it upside down.

 

[JudyB]

Ok, just wasn't sure if you needed to plant it deeper because it's something "man-made" and not soil beneath it. Considering you're in Ohio, the concrete paver should work just fine out here since we basically get the same weather - or are you too far south to get the lake effect snow?

I use pavers, so I can re-use the area time after time. I dug an area up, buried pavers, and now have an area where I can just grow out in. I'm a bit too far for lake effect, but that's actually not a good thing. When they get a nice insulating snow sometimes, all we get is a bit of snow, and cold temps. The snow can really be the difference as it insulates.
I don't think plastic is a good idea because of the water that might pool if it creates a bowl in the hole, and your roots might rot there. Be careful if you use a plate, that it's not ceramic, as I had one that cracked, (first try, before pavers) and the roots took advantage of that.

 

[catfish chapstick]

I've been playing around with willows for a while now. I've seen a 100% success rate with cuttings of all sizes. One of the things I've been doing lately is developing taper before I even take the cutting off the parent tree. Chops heal much faster and you could even train your branch structure. You can also do root cuttings and get some interesting shapes. I had a cutting that was 1 inch in diameter that i rooted last summer and kept in a pot, inside the house by a window. It grew all winter and is showing no sign of stress. There are some serious possibilities with willows but i only use the contorted variety. If you slow them down they produce fine zig zag and wavy branches. All you need to do it wire for position or you could just clip and grow. There are a few of these "corkskrew" willows in my area. My old neighbor had one that I still go back to. I dont know how long a willow would live indoors but i have seen it done for at least three years. Mine isn't even leggy.

 

[Poink88]

because water can pool on plastic sheeting and in time roots will penetrate it once it becomes brittle. Exactly how long have you been ground growing? Sometimes people make it "more complicated" because that's what works. I'm beginning to remember why I left the forums....

And your solution is not to use it? Of course instead of weighing the merit of my opinion, you have to ask me how long I've been doing it. LOL What's new?

Let's go back to basics. Use the tile to re-direct the root growth, make it as flat as possible.

You can do that with; tile, metal, glass, plastic, etc. Why I choose plastic?
- cheap and widely available,
- can be cut to any size easily
- works as good as any
- easier to dig later
- etc.

I use HDPE but a good contractor grade trash bag will last longer than I will in this planet before it start decomposing.

You know you can mound the soil under it right? Plastic will take that shape easily and IMHO will create a better nebari as well.

Good morning!

 

[brewmeister83]

I've been playing around with willows for a while now. I've seen a 100% success rate with cuttings of all sizes.

And they take no matter what time of year! I actually snagged a branch off this willow that I was trying to identify back in the deep cold of Feb. and after I figured out it was the native species I wanted I thought "Hmmm... I wonder if this will root while still dormant?" So I cut the little 1/4 in. twigs off the main stick then threw them all into water to root - every one did, scary... But I digress from the thread, thanks for the willow training hints, I'll put them to good use along with all the tile growing info everyone else has posted here

 

[Dav4]

To achieve the sought after results- a flat nebari- the "platform" the tree is planted on needs to be rigid and it needs to stay that way. Plastic sheeting or trash bags aren't rigid, and unless the soil beneath it is COMPLETELY packed with no air pockets, and doesn't shift while the tree is planted on it, the shape of the sheeting could change, particularly after heavy rains, deep winter cold followed by thawing, drought, etc., change the moisture and air content in the soil. The soil in CT freezes FEET deep in a typical winter....ice forms and soil can shift. Plates, tiles, pavers, etc., will stay flat through all of this. Dario, feel free to practice with your own trees, but please don't recommend unproven techniques to people asking for help, particularly when alternatives that have been proven many times over decades have been offered. When you've completed your experiments, show us the results. If the results are acceptable, then perhaps you can say your technique works in TX...I still wouldn't recommend it for someone in a Northern climate until it has been successfully used there.

For the OP, I've used flat sheets of wood and rigid platic successfully in zone 6 MA. You don't need to do anything differently as far as planting depth. In fact, planting the tree too deeply can adversely affect the health of the tree. Tree roots are used to being in frozen soil for months on end during the winter, so no worries. You should plant it out with the root collar of the tree just above the soil surface...like you were planting out a landscape tree. You want to prepare the soil around your tile to allow the tree roots to rapidly grow into it, and don't forget to mulch with wood chips and water weekly throught the summer. Good luck.

Dave

 

[Tieball]

Tiles

I use 16" x 16" floor tiles from the Home Depot. I watch for leftovers, one-of-a-kinds or ones with chipped corners. They are happy to move those off the shelf discounted. I use about 1.5" to 2" of soil below the tree roots (between the roots and the tile). I make sure that the ground is level and filled-in completely underneath the tile so a hollow do not develop. Works great here in the West Michigan climate.

 

[Dav4]

I use 16" x 16" floor tiles from the Home Depot. I watch for leftovers, one-of-a-kinds or ones with chipped corners. They are happy to move those off the shelf discounted. I use about 1.5" to 2" of soil below the tree roots (between the roots and the tile)QUOTE]

I would plant the tree directly on the tile...the goal is to direct ALL of the root growth laterally and away from the trunk.

 

[Tieball]

I use 16" x 16" floor tiles from the Home Depot. I watch for leftovers, one-of-a-kinds or ones with chipped corners. They are happy to move those off the shelf discounted. I use about 1.5" to 2" of soil below the tree roots (between the roots and the tile)QUOTE]

I would plant the tree directly on the tile...the goal is to direct ALL of the root growth laterally and away from the trunk.

Interesting...perhaps worth a test for me. I've always read that there should be some soil so the roots have something to do down below...soil that holds some moisture without having open air pockets being created as the roots develop. I'll check my trees on tiles this year as I have to move them and replant in a new growing ground area (I'm getting kicked out of the middle of the garden).

 

[markyscott]

I've had some difficulty with tiles in that unless the plant is securely fastened, the roots may still grow downward, lifting the plant off the tile and not achieving the desired effect. I asked my teacher about this and he showed me an article from Kinbon and described a garden he has visited in Japan that employed the technique described in the article. The pictures he showed me from the garden had those beautiful cutting grown Japanese maples with the melting nebari. The technique involves the use of wood instead of ceramic tiles, which allows you to drill a hole through the wood and into the trunk to screw the tree to the wood, forcing the roots to grow out instead of down. It also allows you to arrange the roots radially by holding them into place with nails pounded into the board.

I attempted this with a Chinese elm and two Japanese maples this repotting season. I have no results to report except that the trees are growing and healthy this spring. Here's what I did more specifically, in an attempt to replicate what was related to me and based on my understanding of the technique:

1. Repot, eliminating any downward growing roots, leaving a flat root mass, parallel with the base of the trunk. It is essential that the tree sit flat on the board.
2. Cut a board from a sheet of plywood, a couple inches smaller on each side than the Anderson flat I was going to pot the trees in.
3. Place a drainage layer of 3/8"-1/2" particles on the base of the flat (this size will prevent the soil from passing through the holes on the base of the flat. Put enough drainage material in to allow the tree to be planted at the proper elevation.
4. Drill a hole in the center of the board.
5. Place the tree solidly on the board and screw it into place with a 3" wood screw.
6. Set the board down on a solid surface and arrange the roots radially, holding them in place with small finishing nails. Eliminate any crossing roots and perform root grafts where needed. This just involves thread grafting a growing root tip into the desired area. The polarity of the roots on these species can be switched when the graft takes.
7. Place the board and tree in the flat on top of the drainage layer and add a coarse, well-draining substrate.

Here's a picture of the finished product (sorry I didn't take any during repotting):


Scott

 

[Erndogy]

I have a question for those of you who have planted on boards or tiles or pavers:

Would drilling holes in the flat surfaces help thicken the base additionally or faster? I have seen an example of what growing on a flat, hard surface does, such as my twisty pomegranate I posted up recently. It had been grown on a square piece of plywood.

But say holes had been drilled in the flat piece. Would that have helped the nebari or the trunk develop thicker or faster?


Thanks in advance,

Ernie

 

[fore]

I use 16" x 16" floor tiles from the Home Depot. I watch for leftovers, one-of-a-kinds or ones with chipped corners. They are happy to move those off the shelf discounted. I use about 1.5" to 2" of soil below the tree roots (between the roots and the tile)QUOTE]

I would plant the tree directly on the tile...the goal is to direct ALL of the root growth laterally and away from the trunk.

Dave, this is great for a trunk that can be screwed to plywood, but what about 2-3y/o seedlings? If I put directly on the wood, with no way to fasten them together, it's not a pretty situation (learned the hard way). A couple I did this too have pushed upward forming 'claws' for nebari, again, not pretty. I have no idea what's the protocol for these. By this time, too thick, too many branches to thread thru a tile like Telperion farms' thread here...which is the only other thing I've read about forming a good nebari from seedlings.

chris

 

[Dav4]

Dave, this is great for a trunk that can be screwed to plywood, but what about 2-3y/o seedlings? If I put directly on the wood, with no way to fasten them together, it's not a pretty situation (learned the hard way). A couple I did this too have pushed upward forming 'claws' for nebari, again, not pretty. I have no idea what's the protocol for these. By this time, too thick, too many branches to thread thru a tile like Telperion farms' thread here...which is the only other thing I've read about forming a good nebari from seedlings.

chris

Good question. I didn't have that problem, but I've only done this with U. parviflora so your mileage may vary with different species, I suppose. The material was probably three years old, so it had a fairly developed root system. I used relatively small wooden squares, maybe 10" by 10", and made sure the roots extended to the edge of the wood and were directed down into the ammended soil below and around the wood. I covered the wood and roots with about 2" of soil, then mulched. Kept watered through the summer...worked pretty well.

 

[fore]

I did the same, about 2" of soil over roots over wood. It kept falling over every time I watered. Very aggravating lol