Ponderosa Pine (from Golden Arrow Bonsai)

[jevanlewis]

Another satisfied Golden Arrow Bonsai customer! Let me give a shout out to Andy for his excellent communication, fast shipping, carefully packaged tree, and great prices.

I'm starting this thread to track my progress with this tree (age: ~60 years) and solicit advice along the way. For the next two years, I will focus only on the health of the tree: heavy fertilization during the growing season, full sun, appropriate watering, and pest prevention. I won't be doing any wiring, pruning, plucking or repotting.

 

[River's Edge]

Another satisfied Golden Arrow Bonsai customer! Let me give a shout out to Andy for his excellent communication, fast shipping, carefully packaged tree, and great prices.

I'm starting this thread to track my progress with this tree (age: ~60 years) and solicit advice along the way. For the next two years, I will focus only on the health of the tree: heavy fertilization during the growing season, full sun, appropriate watering, and pest prevention. I won't be doing any wiring, pruning, plucking or repotting.

For Ponderosa I would avoid heavy fertilization during the growing season. Better approach in my opinion would be to fertilize in fall and early spring to encourage bud back and maintain health without excessively long needle growth! Even if it was recently repotted or a newer collected tree I would stick to a milder fertilization process! The tree appears healthy, if it were in my care I would wire it out to open it up for bud back.
Just some thoughts for consideration.
Unless of course Andy warned you that the tree was weak and or would have trouble adjusting to the climate change?

 

[jevanlewis]

According to Andy, it should be okay to wire at the beginning of the growing season.

A few clarifying questions:
1. For pines, does the growing season start when candles begin to elongate? And, does the growing season end once needles are fully extended?
2. During the growing season, do you stop fertilizing altogether, or just switch to light fertilizing?
3. For pines in refinement, I understand why we don't want long needles for visual reasons. For a pine in development, are there non-visual reasons we don't want long needles (e.g., shades out other needles)?

 

[0soyoung]

1. For pines, does the growing season start when candles begin to elongate?

Yes.

And, does the growing season end once needles are fully extended?

No. Stems continue to thicken, but no further lengthening of stems indeed occurs.

2. During the growing season, do you stop fertilizing altogether, or just switch to light fertilizing?

No fert when the new growth is extending. For ponderosa this is during spring. This affords minimal internode and needle lengths. Once hardened fertilize because good nitrogen nutrition is essential for budding.

3. For pines in refinement, I understand why we don't want long needles for visual reasons. For a pine in development, are there non-visual reasons we don't want long needles (e.g., shades out other needles)?

I want vigorous growth while in development. I don't care about needle length and etc., beyond assuring that all foliage has good sun exposure (note that branches below a vigorous sacrifice will naturally be 'stunted'). Fertilize all season long, pinch in spring only for balance, wait until fall to prune so as to maximize the time all the foliage can contribute to building your tree.

 

[Potawatomi13]

According to Andy, it should be okay to wire at the beginning of the growing season.

A few clarifying questions:
1. For pines, does the growing season start when candles begin to elongate? And, does the growing season end once needles are fully extended?
2. During the growing season, do you stop fertilizing altogether, or just switch to light fertilizing?
3. For pines in refinement, I understand why we don't want long needles for visual reasons. For a pine in development, are there non-visual reasons we don't want long needles (e.g., shades out other needles)?

Familiar with Ryan Neil/Bonsai Mirai? Ryan tells to fertilize and water very well during development stage growing season. Traffic of food, H2O, to vigorous needle growth develops best back bud growth, health, root development. Combined with great breathing substrate of pumice to give O2 to roots makes best development possible. Too many worry of needle length during development which only hinders development. Ryan is the Pondeosa Guru. If able to subscribe to Mirai Live. Watch all library streams on Ponderosa.

 

[Colorado]

Another satisfied Golden Arrow Bonsai customer! Let me give a shout out to Andy for his excellent communication, fast shipping, carefully packaged tree, and great prices.

I'm starting this thread to track my progress with this tree (age: ~60 years) and solicit advice along the way. For the next two years, I will focus only on the health of the tree: heavy fertilization during the growing season, full sun, appropriate watering, and pest prevention. I won't be doing any wiring, pruning, plucking or repotting.

Nice tree and good plan. If you see vigorous growth this year, I wouldn’t be afraid to do some structural wiring next year. Ryan Neil has mentioned that he sees much greater backbudding on Ponderosas that have been wired out, presumably due to hormone shift from the altered branch placements.

 

[jevanlewis]

I have only read Ryan Neil’s free resources on PP. When it gets close to growing season, I’ll subscribe to Mirai or binge watch all the PP videos during a free trial.

 

[Colorado]

Have fun! Ponderosa are my favorite species for bonsai. Looking forward to seeing this one develop.

 

[River's Edge]

Andy provides some great insight into Ponderosa and fertilizers on his site as well. Timing of fertilizer application makes a difference for back budding results! Like most things in Bonsai it gets very subjective when using terms like " heavy fertilization" and or " only concerned about needle length". I agree completely that vigorous growth is desired during development. The devil is in the details.
You will get excellent back budding results with correct timing of application and moderate fertilization. The results are improved by wiring out to open the structure! This is true for all pines and accepted technique. Suggest you avoid heavy nitrogen levels, a reasonable guideline is 12 or less.
Heavier application of fertilizer is suitable in the fall to set up for better bud production in the spring. Then withholding fertilizer until the needles hardened off. This approach provided me with the back budding without excessive needle length! The reason why needle length is not the only factor to consider is because you need the vigour to produce the extra buds, once you have more and more buds the needle length is easier to control with available resources being sub divided! Some times the advice is not conflicting, but often it is misinterpreted.

 

[LittleDingus]

Another satisfied Golden Arrow Bonsai customer! Let me give a shout out to Andy for his excellent communication, fast shipping, carefully packaged tree, and great prices.

I'm starting this thread to track my progress with this tree (age: ~60 years) and solicit advice along the way. For the next two years, I will focus only on the health of the tree: heavy fertilization during the growing season, full sun, appropriate watering, and pest prevention. I won't be doing any wiring, pruning, plucking or repotting.

I _almost_ bought this exact tree myself! Glad I didn't...it'll be safer in anyone's hands but mine I've been staring at the "nice three tree group -as soon as you remove one tree." douglas fir he currently has pictures as well. But I'm afraid I'd kill that one too For now, I'll stay content with my stupid baby ponderosa and dougy until I'm sure I can keep them alive.

Enjoy the tree!

 

[Adair M]

Familiar with Ryan Neil/Bonsai Mirai? Ryan tells to fertilize and water very well during development stage growing season. Traffic of food, H2O, to vigorous needle growth develops best back bud growth, health, root development. Combined with great breathing substrate of pumice to give O2 to roots makes best development possible. Too many worry of needle length during development which only hinders development. Ryan is the Pondeosa Guru. If able to subscribe to Mirai Live. Watch all library streams on Ponderosa.

Wiring pines out is universal. Pines tend to grow up vertical. Wiring and laying the branches out into pads exposes the woody stems to sunlight. Mild bending also creates “micro cracks” in the bark which combined with the sunlight can often stimulate back budding. On my pines, I often see backbudding occur after I’ve wired out pads. I tend to wire in the fall, the new buds appear during the winter.

Yes, needle length doesn’t matter on a tree in development. But long internodes do! Therefore, moderate fertilization is the way to do. With JBP, we can decandle them, remove the long internodes, so heavy fertilization isn’t an issue. Pondys shouldn’t be decandled. So, try not to create long internodes when you don’t have to.

 

[BrianBay9]

Larry Jackel's book is also an excellent resource for ponderosa. It's available on Andy's site. https://www.goldenarrowbonsai.com/bonsai-care-pg-12.html

 

[Potawatomi13]

Larry Jackel's book is also an excellent resource for ponderosa. It's available on Andy's site. https://www.goldenarrowbonsai.com/bonsai-care-pg-12.html

Mostly in error. Ryan informed of this upon first visit to Mirai.

 

[BrianBay9]

Mostly in error. Ryan informed of this upon first visit to Mirai.

? Don't understand what you're saying. Ryan says Larry Jackel's book is mostly wrong?

 

[Adair M]

? Don't understand what you're saying. Ryan says Larry Jackel's book is mostly wrong?

Don’t you just love Potawatomi13’s posting style?

 

[jevanlewis]

Although I haven't read the book, my understanding is that Larry Jackel's book recommends the traditional approach to working with PPs, which is to severely limit fertilization and water, pull needles, and cut terminal buds to force back budding. Ryan Neil and Walter Pall advocate the opposite approach (for initially collected trees, at least): heavy feeding and watering, limited to no pruning and needle pulling, and using a coarse substrate. My plan is to follow Ryan's and Walter's approach, perhaps with the modification to adjust fertilization down in the spring to manage internode length as needed. I also will follow the suggestion of Adair and Frank to wire for increased sun penetration.

Although I plan to deviate from Larry Jackel's approach to fertilization, pruning, plucking, etc., I am sure there is a lot of information in the book that is not at odds with the Mirai/Walter Pall approach (e.g., designs/styles for PPs), and so I probably will still get the book.

 

[BrianBay9]

I haven't worked with ponderosa pines in years and can't recall the specifics in Jackel's book but I did follow it then with good results. One thing to emphasize - make sure the recommended techniques are referring to the same stage of development your tree is in. It's easy to miss the statement that a particular technique is only for trees in refinement stage, or only for trees in development. I don't recall Jackel suggesting limiting ferts, water, pulling needles, or pretty much doing anything with a newly collected tree until it shows good, strong growth for at least a full season or two. I've had collected ponderosa that did nothing for three or four years before they decided they were going to live and start growing again. Add no additional stress until they do. They'll tell you when they're ready.

 

[Potawatomi13]

? Don't understand what you're saying. Ryan says Larry Jackel's book is mostly wrong?

Indeed.

 

[Adair M]

/ 1

Indeed.

One thing is certain: No one can accuse you of being long winded!

 

[Potawatomi13]

/ 1

One thing is certain: No one can accuse you of being long winded!

Indeed! Unlike present company.