Pot with swastika stamp

[Cajunrider]

Ah. There we go. That's the point of disagreement. I would say that if something means different things to different people, then it is all the more rich with meaning.

The greatest works of literature are also the most difficult to understand, because they are packed with the most possible meaning per word, and that's a lot to unpack. Therefore, great works of literature necessarily mean different things to different people. That doesn't mean literature isn't a worthwhile pursuit; it just means that you can't empirically observe the meaning behind it.

That's not to say anything goes. Some interpretations are going to be better than others. In some instances, the difference in the quality of the analysis is stark, and it's plain to see which is better, but when two interpretations are very similar in profundity, you can't exactly measure them to see which one is deeper, so it remains somewhat subjective.

Which is the "better" interpretation of the swastika? The extermination of 17 million Jews, Gypsies, gays, and handicapped people on the basis of their supposed genetic inferiority or millennia of religious and cultural tradition? You can't exactly measure which one better fits the symbol, so both meanings will persist. As long as they do, you won't be able to use the symbol without conjuring the image of the gas chamber.

To me the Nazi part of the symbol is more notorious and carries implied evil. One should be careful to not be unintentionally associated with that evil. If I were to use the symbol for religious and cultural tradition, I will make sure to set the environment with other symbols and traditional sign to make sure that there is no ambiguity. That said, for people who do not possess that understanding, sometimes misunderstanding can occur so most of the time I steer clear. Some of my friends do display the symbol in their houses in Buddhist settings.

 

[rockm]

Sad and kind of heartbreaking to see the virulent antisemitism and murder sponsored under the symbol we're talking about boiled down to simple "branding." (which is a profound misunderstanding and misinterpretation of what actually happened.)

Regardless of what this symbol means in the east, IN THE WEST it means oppression, racism and death. More power to you if you can get daylight between the symbol and that sinister meaning (I don't know if that distance should be made, BTW).

I am far from the oversensitive dumbass snowflake that seems to really upset some folks here.

In my youth, I was fortunate enough to know more than a few Holocaust survivors. We talked a lot. Those conversations had a profound impact on me 50 years ago. I learned of the actual first-hand impact this symbol had. In talking with them, many feared that as time wore on, the meaning of that symbol and the regime that used it would be lost as younger people saw the death of 6 million as ancient history. They said as time passed, people would try to rationalize and explain away the regime and its trappings that killed their fathers, mothers, wives, husbands, sons and daughters. That explanation would come as bland statements that muddied the meaning of things. Not intentionally, but muddied nevertheless. Time fades things. Sometimes time fades very important things and lessons already learned.

The saying "Never Forget" may seem to some as just another marketing scam, but to me, it's personal.

 

[milehigh_7]

Legend has it that moments after the photo, he threw it on the ground and jumped up and down on it because it wouldn't grow fast enough. And the bark was too dark in color.

Edit: And saying "threw it on the ground" made me immediately think of:

Happy birthday to the ground!!!!

 

[Cajunrider]

Sad and kind of heartbreaking to see the virulent antisemitism and murder sponsored under the symbol we're talking about boiled down to simple "branding." (which is a profound misunderstanding and misinterpretation of what actually happened.)

Regardless of what this symbol means in the east, IN THE WEST it means oppression, racism and death. More power to you if you can get daylight between the symbol and that sinister meaning (I don't know if that distance should be made, BTW).

I am far from the oversensitive dumbass snowflake that seems to really upset some folks here.

In my youth, I was fortunate enough to know more than a few Holocaust survivors. We talked a lot. Those conversations had a profound impact on me 50 years ago. I learned of the actual first-hand impact this symbol had. In talking with them, many feared that as time wore on, the meaning of that symbol and the regime that used it would be lost as younger people saw the death of 6 million as ancient history. They said as time passed, people would try to rationalize and explain away the regime and its trappings that killed their fathers, mothers, wives, husbands, sons and daughters. That explanation would come as bland statements that muddied the meaning of things. Not intentionally, but muddied nevertheless. Time fades things. Sometimes time fades very important things and lessons already learned.

The saying "Never Forget" may seem to some as just another marketing scam, but to me, it's personal.

I myself have had many “Never Forget” moments that burn into my soul and will go with me at least to the end of my days on earth. Yet when I try to pass that hard lessons on, I often have have people who have had zero first hand knowledge telling me that what happened to me, my family, and friends never happened. In those cases, I just shake my head and move on.

 

[Matt B]

Ah. There we go. That's the point of disagreement. I would say that if something means different things to different people, then it is all the more rich with meaning.

I think I'm more or a "speak clearly, mean what you say, and don't leave it up to interpretation" kind of guy. I understand all of the complexities, and I can get the drift, so to speak, but I value directness more.

The greatest works of literature are also the most difficult to understand, because they are packed with the most possible meaning per word, and that's a lot to unpack. Therefore, great works of literature necessarily mean different things to different people. That doesn't mean literature isn't a worthwhile pursuit; it just means that you can't empirically observe the meaning behind it.

This is why I love and hate understanding the meanings the artists put behind the lyrics they sing. A song that has a significant meaning to me is ruined when I learn that the artist was talking about snorting coke. That happened to me with the lyrics of Red Hot Chili Peppers' song Snow (Hey Oh). It sounded so deep and mysterious, about life, goals and relationships but yeah, it was all about cocaine and addiction. I associate the music with the original intended meaning, not my misunderstanding of it. This is why I think songwriters should NEVER divulge their personal inspirations behind their music. Leave it open to interpretation, like Shakespeare.

That's not to say anything goes. Some interpretations are going to be better than others. In some instances, the difference in the quality of the analysis is stark, and it's plain to see which is better, but when two interpretations are very similar in profundity, you can't exactly measure them to see which one is deeper, so it remains somewhat subjective.

Which is the "better" interpretation of the swastika? The extermination of 17 million Jews, Gypsies, gays, and handicapped people on the basis of their supposed genetic inferiority or millennia of religious and cultural tradition? You can't exactly measure which one better fits the symbol, so both meanings will persist. As long as they do, you won't be able to use the symbol without conjuring the image of the gas chamber.

For Me the original interpretation is its truest interpretation. If Coke went out of business, and a serial killer started using their logo as a calling card, does it change the association? Naa, that's the Coke label. This guy stole it and used it for his own brand, because he was too unoriginal to come up with his own. The Nazis could have used the Pillsbury Dough Boy as their calling card.

 

[Matt B]

To me the Nazi part of the symbol is more notorious and carries implied evil. One should be careful to not be unintentionally associated with that evil. If I were to use the symbol for religious and cultural tradition, I will make sure to set the environment with other symbols and traditional sign to make sure that there is no ambiguity. That said, for people who do not possess that understanding, sometimes misunderstanding can occur so most of the time I steer clear. Some of my friends do display the symbol in their houses in Buddhist settings.

Well, I for sure wouldn't go out and buy a swastika necklace. I do recognize that people irrationally hate the symbol, regardless of its orientation, because they lack the education to interpret the meanings or are too chained to the meanings. I'm sure you don't call your Buddhist friends out for their swastika prayer tables. You recognize the interpretations and don't get moved or offended by them.

 

[Matt B]

Sad and kind of heartbreaking to see the virulent antisemitism and murder sponsored under the symbol we're talking about boiled down to simple "branding." (which is a profound misunderstanding and misinterpretation of what actually happened.)

But that's just it. I'm not boiling down people or acts or good and evil to a logo. I'm making an analogy of one entity, be it a company, a state, a school, a political party or whatever, using a logo to convey their ideals to the masses. In its truest sense, a country's flag is the same as the Nike swoosh symbol or the Florida State University logo or the star of David. The Nazis co-otped a logo to use as their insignia, brand or whatever you want to call it. This analogy is not somehow an attempt to minimize or reconceptionalize what the Nazis did under that insignia.

That being said, really what we have here is a case of copyright infringement. If Buddhists and Nazis were companies, the Buddhist could have issued a cease and desist and stopped the Nazis from soiling their symbol.

Regardless of what this symbol means in the east, IN THE WEST it means oppression, racism and death. More power to you if you can get daylight between the symbol and that sinister meaning (I don't know if that distance should be made, BTW).

In the West, we lack the education to see it for anything different, and the ability to uncouple an emotional feeling from what is essentially a doodle that someone did on a pot a long time ago. The swastika killed nobody and committed no atttrocities. It's no different than a plus sign, the catholic cross or the period at the end of this sentence.

I am far from the oversensitive dumbass snowflake that seems to really upset some folks here.

In my youth, I was fortunate enough to know more than a few Holocaust survivors. We talked a lot. Those conversations had a profound impact on me 50 years ago. I learned of the actual first-hand impact this symbol had. In talking with them, many feared that as time wore on, the meaning of that symbol and the regime that used it would be lost as younger people saw the death of 6 million as ancient history. They said as time passed, people would try to rationalize and explain away the regime and its trappings that killed their fathers, mothers, wives, husbands, sons and daughters. That explanation would come as bland statements that muddied the meaning of things. Not intentionally, but muddied nevertheless. Time fades things. Sometimes time fades very important things and lessons already learned.

Nobody is trying.to trivialize, explain away, rationalize or otherwise diminish the magnatude of the atrocities that were committed. We were talking about an inconsequential doodle on the bottom of a bonsai pot.

 

[Gabler]

I do recognize that people irrationally hate the symbol, regardless of its orientation, because they lack the education to interpret the meanings or are too chained to the meanings.

I thought we were making progress in our conversation, but it seems we're back to where we started. No respect for a difference in viewpoint. People who hate the swastika are not irrational, uneducated, or too chained to the symbol's meaning. I invite you to remove your materialist blinders. It is entirely reasonable to hold the position that there is power in symbols' ability to convey meaning.

That being said, really what we have here is a case of copyright infringement. If Buddhists and Nazis were companies, the Buddhist could have issued a cease and desist and stopped the Nazis from soiling their symbol.

Um. No. That's not how copyright law works. You're not even close.

 

[Matt B]

I thought we were making progress in our conversation, but it seems we're back to where we started. No respect for a difference in viewpoint. People who hate the swastika are not irrational, uneducated, or too chained to the symbol's meaning. I invite you to remove your materialist blinders. It is entirely reasonable to hold the position that there is power in symbols' ability to convey meaning.

Remove my materialist blinders? What does the conversation have to do with materialism? I could have used state flags, religious icons, or school mascots to make my analogy, but since the trademark is a very well understood concept to most western minds, I used that in my analogy.

The point here is that the VAST majority of westerners are not aware of the swastika in any other context than to represent Nazis. That is a failure of the educational system, pure and simple. We all had a basic education in heiroglyphs, but not the other uses of the swastika. To those who are aware of the origin of the swastika and its various uses, and still allow it to live in their memory as a symbol of hatred and intolerance, they are chained to that context, willingly.

And yes, some people allow symbols symbols to evoke feelings in them, and some don't. I don't. To me, a swastika is the same as a Chevrolet emblem, or an infinity sign, a star of David, a pentagram or anything else. It's a symbol meant to be used in conjuction with or to describe a set of ideals, values or attributes. If some wish to allow them to evoke fear, hatred or superstition, that is their choice. That is a voluntary decision, and people are allowed to make decisions. I have made mine, and you have made yours, and that is absolutely fine. Nothing to fight over.

Um. No. That's not how copyright law works. You're not even close.

What I meant is trademark infringement. And that is exactly how trademark infringement works. And that comment was an attempt to inject a bit of levity because what started as a casual and curious discussion seems to have become a bit heated. This is Bonsai Nut, not Quora. We are here to discuss an Eastern art, not western politics.

 

[Gabler]

Remove my materialist blinders? What does the conversation have to do with materialism? I could have used state flags, religious icons, or school mascots to make my analogy, but since the trademark is a very well understood concept to most western minds, I used that in my analogy.

The point here is that the VAST majority of westerners are not aware of the swastika in any other context than to represent Nazis. That is a failure of the educational system, pure and simple. We all had a basic education in heiroglyphs, but not the other uses of the swastika. To those who are aware of the origin of the swastika and its various uses, and still allow it to live in their memory as a symbol of hatred and intolerance, they are chained to that context, willingly.

And yes, some people allow symbols symbols to evoke feelings in them, and some don't. I don't. To me, a swastika is the same as a Chevrolet emblem, or an infinity sign, a star of David, a pentagram or anything else. It's a symbol meant to be used in conjuction with or to describe a set of ideals, values or attributes. If some wish to allow them to evoke fear, hatred or superstition, that is their choice. That is a voluntary decision, and people are allowed to make decisions. I have made mine, and you have made yours, and that is absolutely fine. Nothing to fight over.

What I meant is trademark infringement. And that is exactly how trademark infringement works. And that comment was an attempt to inject a bit of levity because what started as a casual and curious discussion seems to have become a bit heated. This is Bonsai Nut, not Quora. We are here to discuss an Eastern art, not western politics.

Materialism is a prevailing view of metaphysics in the West. I would roughly summarize it with the statement: "If it can't be measured, it doesn't exist."

Materialism - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[Gabler]

an attempt to inject a bit of levity

Fair enough. I clearly took your comment about copyright/trademark infringement the wrong way.

 

[Matt B]

Materialism is a prevailing view of metaphysics in the West. I would roughly summarize it with the statement: "If it can't be measured, it doesn't exist."

Materialism - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

My whole life I was under the impression that materialism was concerning ones self with material possessions rather than experiences and relationships, and I had always heard it used exclusively in that context. I actually was so certain in that definition that I never considered it was actually much deeper than that. While it still isn't an exact match for my feeling that a swastika is a simple doodle that doesn't evoke an emotion in me, and as a doodle, should not be feared the same as a gun or knife, I actually learned something today. Any day I learn something is a great day to be alive, so thank you for that!

Also, it isn't my intention to insult anyone or belittle them for their feelings. I belong to the stiff upper lip, pull yourself up by your bootstraps crowd, so it comes natural for me to separate feeling from actual harm. Sticks and stones, as the saying goes.

 

[Colorado]

We are here to discuss an Eastern art….

Maybe you should try it?

 

[Matt B]

Maybe you should try it?

IKR

 

[queenofsheba52]

This has been an interesting and enlightening thread in many ways.

Although I know and understand that the swastika has been used by many cultures, when I myself see one I think of one thing and only one thing. As some have already said in the thread, I had many family members in Europe badly affected by the swastika. I have had friends that showed me their numbers tattooed on their arms. The swastika makes my skin crawl, but that's just me.