Question

Organic vrs inorganic

  • Organic

    Votes: 10 27.0%
  • Inorganic

    Votes: 27 73.0%

  • Total voters
    37

markyscott

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Back to the original question - do you use an inorganic substrate or one with organics included and why?

I generally avoid questions like this as the responses tend to be quite loaded and the discourse degenerates very quickly. But, I'll put in my 2 cents because I think your question was genuine and I have a lot of respect for BVF. And because when people have problems with trees, I often see that they are planted in less than optimal soil. I think that the issue is that the trees can become much more difficult to care for as the soil mix departs from ideal. And our choices are limited because we grow our trees in shallow containers. When you plant your trees in a pot just a few inches deep, it presents a unique horticultural challenge which is why bonsai soil tends to look a lot different than regular potting soil. In deep pots (and the earth) a lot of things work fine and it's easy to find a soil mix (regular potting soil, for instance) that will give you optimal growing conditions. In a shallow pot, the ideal conditions are much harder to achieve.

The two most important physical properties of a potting mix are:
  1. Air-filled porosity (the percentage of a potting volume that is occupied by the air after irrigation), and
  2. Water holding capacity (the percentage of a volume of potting mix that is occupied by water after irrigation).
When we say "good drainage", what we really mean is "good air-filled porosity (AFP)". It's the single most important measure of a good soil mixture. Good potting mixes generally have an air-filled porosity of at least 15-20% and a water holding capacity of at least 30%. And you don't have to take my word for it - decades of horticultural and agricultural research will tell you the same thing (I'd be happy to provide you with references if you want). Increase the AFP and increase the growth rate, but you'll need to provide more water and nutrients. But increase it too much and the trees will not have access to enough water when you take the hose away. Decrease it too much, and plants will stay wet and growth rates slow down dramatically. As AFP approaches zero, growth rates are minimized and plants can easily succumb. The recommended AFP can be pretty species specific too - some plants (maples, pines) grow best with an air-filled porosity of > 20%. Others (bald cypress) can tolerate a lower AFP than most plants. If your soil stays too moist it encourages soil pathogens such as phytophthora and soil collapse making it difficult to care for your plants.

So what factors impact AFP?
  1. Grain shape - rounded particles have lower porosity, angular fragments have higher porosity. Higher porosity tends to mean higher AFP and lower water-holding capacity.
  2. Grain size - porosity is not strongly affected by particle size, but the size of the pore space is. As you increase the grain size, the porosity remains the same, but the AFP increases and the water-holding capacity goes down.
  3. Sorting - a uniform grain size has a high porosity, high AFP, and lower water-holding capacity.
  4. Height of the container - the same soil in a deep pot has a lower AFP than in a shallow pot
The great news is you can measure AFP and water holding capacity yourself and see the impact of these factors.

So what about organics and inorganics? Inorganics:
  1. Tend to be larger particles. So they tend to have better drainage and higher AFP, thus maintaining an open, oxygen-rich structure.
  2. Tend to not break down as easily. So they add stability
  3. Tend to have a low CEC. So you must fertilize more offend, but you have much more control as to when the plants have access to fertilizer and when they don't. Limiting access to fertilizer is very important for maintaining more developed trees.
Organics:
  1. Tend to have high CEC. So you don't have to fertilize as often, but you have less control on limiting access to fertilizer if you want.
  2. Tends to improve the microbial environment.
  3. Tend to have good water retention.
  4. Are less stable than inorganic components - over time it will break down into fine particles that inhabit drainage.
  5. Can sometimes become water-phobic when they dry out and are difficult to wet again when this happens.
The bottom line is this - you can make your substrate out of many things, but there are tradeoffs. If you make your soil out of all inorganic, you can achieve optimal AFP in a shallow pot, but the soil will tend to have low water retention and low CEC. So you'll have to water more often than you might be used to. Clay-based inorganic helps with the CEC issue and akadama has some unique properties in that it also contains Al-humus complexes that may contribute to the soil chemistry. Adding 10-30% carefully sieved organics to your soil mix can help with water and nutrient retention, but overwatering is possible and the organics will eventually break down, contributing to soil collapse. Watering is more "touchy" when you have a lot of organics in your soil.

So what do I use? First, you have to know that I have no plants in nursery containers - all are in bonsai pots or in shallow training pots. Second, you have to know that I live in Houston - it's high humidity (around eleventy million percent) here and we generally do not have winter freezes. We have a 10 month growing season and get about 48" of rain per year - usually all in one day. All of my plants are potted in inorganics - Boon mix. 1/2-3/8" particle size for maples and pines. 3/8-1/4" for most other plants (including bald cypress). I've been growing them in this medium for about 7 years. Before that I used various combinations of turface, haydite, and pine bark. I don't use that any more.

Why do I use it?
  1. Because I've tried other mediums and I like the results better.
  2. Because I find the trees easier to care for in an inorganic mix. Watering, for instance, is much less of a mystery. When I have someone watch my trees when I'm out of town - I just tell them to water every tree every day. It used to be MUCH more complex instructions.
  3. Because many of the artists I look up to in the US, Europe, and Japan use it (or some variation of it) and have excellent trees proving that you do not need organics to grow great trees.
  4. Because I've measured the AFP and water-holding capacity for the medium in the size containers that I use and it falls within the optimum range. Other mediums I've used do not.
  5. Because I'm in complete control of when the trees have access to fertilizer and when they are not - organic mediums have high CEC and hold on to fertilizer much longer than I like. Holding on to fertilizer presents a problem for black pines, for instance, as I withhold it after decandling until the summer shoots harden off. This technique is much more problematic if you can't withhold fertilizer because your soil is loaded with organics.
  6. Because it's much easier to tweak your soil for the growing conditions you want to achieve. Have a deep cascade pot? Put a finer mixture on top. Want drier conditions for that pine? Use a coarser grained mix.
  7. Because inorganic soils are much more stable and less prone to soil collapse.
Scott
 
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markyscott

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Sorry - typo.

"Height of the container - the same soil in a deep pot has a lower AFP than in a shallow pot"

should read

"Height of the container - the same soil in a deep pot has a higher AFP than in a shallow pot".

Scott
 

Anthony

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Tea bags with composted material = Compost tea, an old practice.

Good Day
Anthony
 

Adair M

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Excellent discussion of soils, markyscott! Bravo!
 

Anthony

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Are questions allowed on Marky's work ?
Can one share experiences ?
Good Day
Anthony
 

markyscott

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Are questions allowed on Marky's work ?
Can one share experiences ?
Good Day
Anthony

I'm Scott, my wife is Marky. But if you'd like to ask her questions I'm happy to pass them along. I have to warn you though - she thinks all this bonsai stuff is pretty darn silly. She might not give you the answers you're looking for,

Scott
 

wireme

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I find it interesting the way substrate conditions change over time. I think we should be careful not to assume the soil will behave in the same manner as it might in say an afp test prior to being planted.
Anthony notes aggregation of compost fines by soil microbes. Then of course the roots themselves will change conditions as they become denser.
To some degree it seems that the tree and associated microbes can tailor a substrate to their advantage, I find that fascinating. Example this little spruce, obviously a very dry mix initially. With spruce and Doug fir, I find this happens very quickly, mycorrhizal growth increases the water holding capacity of the soil. Junipers planted into identical mixes stay drier, so far that's been my observation. Note also the pillbugs burrowing around. Breaking down the organics into fines but at the same time creating tunnels and maintaining air exchange. This spruce needed very frequent watering initially, after a few weeks not so much but heavy watering didn't seem to hurt either.
One thing about the organic debate that has been eluding me- breakdown of akadama is often cited as a good thing but breakdown of organics bad, what's the big difference there?IMG_20150216_093503.jpg IMG_20150216_093631.jpg IMG_20150216_093445.jpg IMG_20150216_093534.jpg
 

Ron Dennis

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Back to the original question - do you use an inorganic substrate or one with organics included and why?
Great read. Thank you and I appreciate your response. You are correct in thinking my question is genuine. I did include Brian's name for validity. I have been "trying to do" bonsai for about five years and have made all the mistakes you might imagine. My purpose in taking Brian's classes is to change my results. As I read intently on bonsai soil and as I followed writings from many I have come to admire, it became very clear I needed Brian's course. Brian's method of teaching is not telling you what to do but leading you to the right conclusion as to why you do something. Many (Adair for one) here on B'nut have talked about intensive study. This course is the start of correct study for me. Now I have to convince Brian to continue his series and move to the next level.
 

markyscott

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That's a fine-looking healthy soil you have there wireme. That's the kind of healthy, environment we should all strive to produce for our trees. And a really interesting observation that there is a symbiosis between the tree and the organisms which inhabit the substrate it grows in. It reminds me to mention that the soil conditions will change over time as roots penetrate the soil structure, mycorrhizae get established, particles break down, etc. We want things to be in equilibrium as in your example for as long a time as possible, but it can't help but go downhill over time, even if we start off with the best possible soil. Which is why we have to eventually repot.

In terms of your question about the breakdown of organics vs akadama, I don't know the answer as I haven't experienced the breakdown of Akadama as others have.

But I do know what we're trying to avoid.

Take a cup of commercially sold potting mix and add water. The soil will immediately collapse by an inch or so - that's the collapse of the pore structure that's happening. Wait a few months and it will collapse by a lot more. In a shallow pot such a soil will start out wet, but end soggy - an unhealthy condition for roots. Soggy conditions promote further soil collapse and allow for a variety of soil pathogens to get established. If you wish to use organics in a bonsai soil and keep your tree healthy, keep away from organic fines, keep the organic component less than 20% or so, and avoid this collapse thing at all costs or your tree will look like the poor plant in that pot.

image.jpg image.jpg image.jpg image.jpg

Scott
 
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markyscott

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Great read. Thank you and I appreciate your response. You are correct in thinking my question is genuine. I did include Brian's name for validity. I have been "trying to do" bonsai for about five years and have made all the mistakes you might imagine. My purpose in taking Brian's classes is to change my results. As I read intently on bonsai soil and as I followed writings from many I have come to admire, it became very clear I needed Brian's course. Brian's method of teaching is not telling you what to do but leading you to the right conclusion as to why you do something. Many (Adair for one) here on B'nut have talked about intensive study. This course is the start of correct study for me. Now I have to convince Brian to continue his series and move to the next level.

We're all students here. Enjoy the journey!

Scott
 

Anthony

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On the other hand, our compost is sifted for fines, which are then added to 5 mm inorganics, and even if we use a half half of peat moss to the fines of compost, no soil collapse has ever been seen.
Our limit is however, 1/3 by volume of organic to 2/3 inorganic.

In fact what happens during the year is the organic disappears on the surface and the inorganic is left behind.
We can then tip the pot and re-mix the inorganic with organic.
The roots are growing and pushing upwards.

Plus please note, having just opened the cores of 30 + year old trees, what was noted was inorganic, fine roots alive, organic having gone to dust, but still being penetrated by live roots, dead fine roots and what seems to be pill bug activity, by boring through the core.
Additionally, after a year and then a repot, the organic goes from fines back into rounded shapes. Old soil is sifted and re-used.

If anything our old soils dry out much faster as the year/s go by.

Our climate is dry [ no rain from Christmas to at time April/June ] Trees sleep for two months, January to February, and we repot from Jan.2nd.
Our Humidity is down to 45 / 50 % by day and back up to 60/70 % at night. An island, with breezes from the sea.
Rainy season produces 80% humidity. 60 inches of rain or so from June to November.

With the dry season, and dormant state of the trees, we can use up to 1/3 organic by volume in the mix, because the hand watering and weather allows the tree to grow into and master the soil mix by the beginning of the rainy season.
We water three times a day, 1 in the evening before 4.30 p.m and 2 times in morning before 8.00 a,m [ Leaves the soil dripping ]

Are we to assume the rounded organic particles to be the Humus state, the acid gluing the fines back togther ?

Perhaps that answer is simply this.

Inorganic [ no akadama ] - high humidity - less need to water - placement full sun.
Inorganic plus a little organic - less humidity - less need to water - placement full sun
Inorganic plus organic - low humidity - less need to water - placement full sun

We use full sun and fertiliser to obtain finer branching and more leaves.

Can we please have some responses from those wiith 20 year + growing of the same trees, and having examined their cores.

Would not roots restore and use the spaces seen in the Ball Bearing idea, as the organic is dissolved ?

Lastly if you use composted oil cakes /meal, to inorganic mixes, would you not in the first year have a lot of organic filtering down into the soil mix ?
Good Day
Anthony

***My humble apologies Scott.
 

markyscott

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Anthony - with respect, I'm really not interested in engaging in debate about the merits of your soil mix vs mine. You've been growing bonsai a long time and have something that works for you. I've been growing trees for a long time and have something that works for me. Neither you or I are planning on changing anything anytime soon. The question was what do you use and why - I've tried to clearly indicate to the OP the reasons behind my preferences. I'm very glad your trees are growing well.

Scott
 

Anthony

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Scott,

not a debate, trying to find a logical way to tackle this soil mix mystery,
You missed this -

"Perhaps that answer is simply this.
Inorganic [ no akadama ] - high humidity - less need to water - placement full sun.
Inorganic plus a little organic - less humidity - less need to water - placement full sun
Inorganic plus organic - low humidity - less need to water - placement full sun "

I used your work as the beginning, and ours as the last.

But I would also like to see the response on cores of trees with those growing them for say 20 years and longer.
How does the soil mix age?

Hopefully, not every generation of growers will have to start over and over and get into the Design aspect faster,
For those not aged 16 to 30, time can be a problem.
This is something we have to address down here frequently, dropping out of Bonsai due to age and too much growing discovery.
Good Day
Anthony
 

Ron Dennis

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Kiyohime--Front.jpg Kiyohime--Back.jpg Thanks to all who took the time to reply and give me your insight. We had a class/workshop over the weekend. After reading everything I could put hands on and talking and listening to others, I decided I would go 100% inorganic. Preparing for the workshop, I decided it may be best to gradually move to 100% inorganic since most I need to repot were in a mixture of organic and inorganic. As we actually were potting up three of my trees, BVF suggested it would be wise to go 100% akadama on this shohin maple and I did.
 
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Your maple will do well in 100% akadama. I would suggest planting it closer to the center (actually I would have centered it).

P.S. On a side note, does anyone know how to kill autocorrect? Every time a type akadama and shohin I get academia and shoo-in. I don't always look and catch the correction.
 

Giga

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Your maple will do well in 100% akadama. I would suggest planting it closer to the center (actually I would have centered it).

P.S. On a side note, does anyone know how to kill autocorrect? Every time a type akadama and shohin I get academia and shoo-in. I don't always look and catch the correction.

Right click it to add it to your dictionary.

Also instead of tea bags has anyone tired using coffee filters and just cutting off the extra? I'm gonna try that this year since it's pretty cheap at the same as tea bags and can be found anywhere
 

Ron Dennis

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Yes, Don, you are spot on. I realized this when posting the photo and almost did not post it for that reason. I wanted the tree slightly off center and there is a harden long root in the nebari causing the more off center placement. The more I look at this, the more I know it will bug me and may as well correct it now. The Chinese Quince is more what I wanted.
 

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Brian Van Fleet

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I would suggest planting it closer to the center (actually I would have centered it).
Probably best to wait until the next repot. That was as close to center as we could get it without removing quite a bit of the roots on the right. Next repotting (after a year in akadama), we will be able to prune aggressively and center it.
 
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BVF makes solid point. Plus, I probably should have just asked what caused the location rather than assuming it was pure choice. My apologies.
 
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