Question

[edprocoat]

What is the standard advice for growing out a tree ? I always hear plant it in the ground .... lol if organics were no good then why does this work? How does a tree get to be 100 feet tall in nature if organics is no good. Now if you are talking about fine fibrous roots then non organic particles force the roots to grow this way. To get good growth with a medium for a tree or situation that needs to be more wet - long work days in a hot area or a tree like a Bald Cypress or a Ficus that enjoy more moisture - then you need some organics. BTW if this is supposed to be your choice then why are you asking us, perhaps you realize that in a four month course to choose your own soil and defend your choices would be impossible in that time frame unless your opinions were those culled from another. lol It seems like a poorly thought out course plan ...

ed

 

[carp]

That image IS truly worth 1,000 words! Never seen anyone have that kind of result with 100% turface... Til now!

the ficus salicaria in my avatar photo is being grown in 100% turface mvp....guess i should post more pictures of the trees i care for because I put everything in 100% MVP

 

[Eric Group]

Well I have used a lot of turface in my mixes over the years and not had any problems with it.

Interested to see how this "Boone's mix" I put together handles the hottest part of summer here...

 

[Don Blackmond]

What is the standard advice for growing out a tree ? I always hear plant it in the ground .... lol if organics were no good then why does this work? How does a tree get to be 100 feet tall in nature if organics is no good. Now if you are talking about fine fibrous roots then non organic particles force the roots to grow this way. To get good growth with a medium for a tree or situation that needs to be more wet - long work days in a hot area or a tree like a Bald Cypress or a Ficus that enjoy more moisture - then you need some organics. BTW if this is supposed to be your choice then why are you asking us, perhaps you realize that in a four month course to choose your own soil and defend your choices would be impossible in that time frame unless your opinions were those culled from another. lol It seems like a poorly thought out course plan ...

ed

1. People put trees in the ground to increase growth rates, not because the soil is better.
2. Organic material in the ground is fertilizer. If you fertilize potted trees then you don't need organics in your soil.
3. People use organics in bonsai soil because someone told them to do it, not because of necessity.
4. Organics do hold more moisture and will keep soil moist longer, but they are not necessary if you water properly.
5. Organics decompose and can cause root issues. Trees in the ground can avoid these issues; trees in pot cannot.
6. Inorganic medium does not force a fine fibrous root system. Fine, fibrous feeder roots form naturally when conditions are proper. Long, thick roots form out of necessity; need for stability, searching for nutrients, etc.

 

[Don Blackmond]

Well I have used a lot of turface in my mixes over the years and not had any problems with it.

Turface used as an additive is not an issue; its when it is used by itself that it creates additional challenges.

 

[edprocoat]

1. People put trees in the ground to increase growth rates, not because the soil is better.
2. Organic material in the ground is fertilizer. If you fertilize potted trees then you don't need organics in your soil.
3. People use organics in bonsai soil because someone told them to do it, not because of necessity.
4. Organics do hold more moisture and will keep soil moist longer, but they are not necessary if you water properly.
5. Organics decompose and can cause root issues. Trees in the ground can avoid these issues; trees in pot cannot.
6. Inorganic medium does not force a fine fibrous root system. Fine, fibrous feeder roots form naturally when conditions are proper. Long, thick roots form out of necessity; need for stability, searching for nutrients, etc.

First point, I never said the soil was better in the ground. My point was trees growth rates increase when growing in natural soils in the ground.
Second point organic material is present at all times in the ground , available whenever the plant wants to take them. To mimic this with inorganic materials you would either need those messy, stinky, ugly pest attracting cakes laying on your inorganic ? mix or need to constantly fertilize the tree.
For me in hot windy midwest summer weather when I leave for work at 6 am and return at 9 in the evening watering all day is out so organics like pine bark chips help keep my plants from drying out.
Never had a root issue from organics.
Maybe inorganic medium does not force the fine fibrous roots but whenever I have it in my mix that is what I get. So how would I say it to satisfy you, it promotes fine roots, does that work for you ?

ed

 

[Don Blackmond]

So how would I say it to satisfy you, it promotes fine roots, does that work for you ?

ed

You don't need to say anything to satisfy me. I was just offering my input. I won't make that mistake again.

 

[Smoke]

I no

I use 80% inorganic (100% pumice) and 20% organic. The organic is bark fines or pine park mulch.

I use inorganic because it maintains void space for water to flow between the particles and for air to penetrate. I like pumice because it is absorbent. It absorbs water and maintains humidity without creating situations where water is trapped or pools.

I use a small amount of organic because... not sure exactly why As I use organic fertilizer, it breaks down into the soil anyway, so I think organic in the soil just gives my repotted trees a "head-start". But I keep the amount of organic very low.

I notice that a lot of people seem to use bark "fines" or compost. I am wondering why more people don't use like seedling orchid bark. It is about 1/4 particle size and will give the organic benifit while maintaining a good gas exchange. Don't the fines seem to clog up the soil?

 

[Stan Kengai]

I no


I notice that a lot of people seem to use bark "fines" or compost. I am wondering why more people don't use like seedling orchid bark. It is about 1/4 particle size and will give the organic benifit while maintaining a good gas exchange. Don't the fines seem to clog up the soil?

Small fir bark (traditional orchid bark) is not readily available in this part of the country. I can see where fir bark would be a superior material. Where pine bark is very flat (2-dimensionsl), fir bark is more cubic and take longer to break down. But you have to use what's available and affordable.

The pine bark I use sifts out to just under 1/2 bag +1/4" particles. The fines are used to amend growing beds and plant seeds/take cuttings.

 

[Eric Group]

1. People put trees in the ground to increase growth rates, not because the soil is better.
2. Organic material in the ground is fertilizer. If you fertilize potted trees then you don't need organics in your soil.
3. People use organics in bonsai soil because someone told them to do it, not because of necessity.
4. Organics do hold more moisture and will keep soil moist longer, but they are not necessary if you water properly.
5. Organics decompose and can cause root issues. Trees in the ground can avoid these issues; trees in pot cannot.
6. Inorganic medium does not force a fine fibrous root system. Fine, fibrous feeder roots form naturally when conditions are proper. Long, thick roots form out of necessity; need for stability, searching for nutrients, etc.

Great info Don, Thanks!

 

[Eric Group]

I no


I notice that a lot of people seem to use bark "fines" or compost. I am wondering why more people don't use like seedling orchid bark. It is about 1/4 particle size and will give the organic benifit while maintaining a good gas exchange. Don't the fines seem to clog up the soil?

The pine bark "fines" I use are like mini chips of bark right at 1/4 inch I'd say... They come in big white bags from Lowes/ Home Depot labeled "soil conditioner". I have found them to be a very useful soil ingredient for potted plants and a great soil conditioner for my garden soil as well!

I have looked at the orchid bark you mention and these pine bark chips are just a little smaller... I guess I always felt that orchid bark was a little too large- closer to 1/2 inch plus in the bags I have seem... And back to cost.. For the cost of a small, perhaps gallon sized bag of that orchid bark, I get a HUGE 3 cubic feet sized bag of pine bark soil conditioner... Not sure if it is the best stuff, but I have found a lot of uses for it. When using it in Bonsai mixes I have to sift the Hell out of it to get the "dirt" particles out of it...

 

[Bonsai Nut]

I notice that a lot of people seem to use bark "fines" or compost. I am wondering why more people don't use like seedling orchid bark. It is about 1/4 particle size and will give the organic benifit while maintaining a good gas exchange. Don't the fines seem to clog up the soil?

At least in my case, my pumice is pretty large particle size. It doesn't clog easily. I have a bigger problem with my organic fertilizer (I use pelletized composted chicken manure) breaking down into the soil. Even with the hard dry pellets it still eventually breaks down.

 

[ianb]

At least in my case, my pumice is pretty large particle size. It doesn't clog easily. I have a bigger problem with my organic fertilizer (I use pelletized composted chicken manure) breaking down into the soil. Even with the hard dry pellets it still eventually breaks down.

Hey Greg,

Tried these last year for just that problem, they worked great last a couple of months and I just use a piece of wire to secure to the soil surface if you have pest problems.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

Hey that's a great idea! Thank you! Just don't get them mixed up with your regular tea bags!

 

[Smoke]

Y

At least in my case, my pumice is pretty large particle size. It doesn't clog easily. I have a bigger problem with my organic fertilizer (I use pelletized composted chicken manure) breaking down into the soil. Even with the hard dry pellets it still eventually breaks down.

You still using Jongs? I have ten bags in my shed that I have decided to use in the garden on the color plants in the ground. I am now using what promisis to be the ticket for me. Easy peasy and no mess, no clogged pots and extremely good growth.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

You still using Jongs? I have ten bags in my shed that I have decided to use in the garden on the color plants in the ground. I am now using what promisis to be the ticket for me. Easy peasy and no mess, no clogged pots and extremely good growth.

Yes, when I can get it. It is still the best option out there that I have found, but it is not always available. I ordered a big bag of pelletized chicken manure from an organic supply house just to see if it was as good as Jong's, but it was not nearly as compressed and it broke down much faster.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

Hey I just did a quick search and Jong's has an online store now available!!

http://www.shop.jongs.com/main.sc

 

[Bonsai Nut]

I am now using what promisis to be the ticket for me. Easy peasy and no mess, no clogged pots and extremely good growth.

So are you going to share?

 

[edprocoat]

[QUOTE="Bonsai Nut, post: 2415 Just don't get them mixed up with your regular tea bags![/QUOTE]

That would really ruin the start of a day !

ed

 

[edprocoat]

B-Nut when using tea bags ever wonder how much of the nutrients is not making it through the filter ? I have no idea how it would be checked but it seems it would have to reduce by an appreciable amount the nutrients that could pass through the filter of the tea bag.

ed