Raffia and Alternatives

[0soyoung]

Oso, looked at that thread. Hard to see what you did in the photos, but thanks for sharing.

Of course it is easy for me, since I did it and took the pix. If you tell me what you want to know and/or what isn't clear and/or what is confusing, I will gladly try to elucidate - in that thread or via a private conversation (where I can link to things, but cannot post more photos).

 

[0soyoung]

... if there is sufficient supporting wire, then perhaps no wrapping stuff is needed! Except as padding.

Yes, I agree.
My habit now is to use the tape when attempting something that I think has a high risk of me creating some rather severe damage instead of clumsily wrapping the damage in poly film (visqueen, HDPE) or parafilm after the fact. Otherwise, I proceed just with wire and wrap with parafilm after the fact when I crack/split the branch. Any kind of water barrier crap probably would work, I just prefer to just cover it andnot to put anything into the damage site.

 

[A Random User]

Stems and trunks positioned with a horizontal component (not absolutely vertical) are usually thicker vertically than horizontally. Gravitropism causes more wood to form on the underside. I think this is your 'wood grain' point; to this, I attempted bends orthogonally to this axis (the direction in which the stem should have been thinner) and it snapped.

While I hear your point about twisting while bending, I cannot comprehend the front/back stuff. Regardless, you're telling me that I/one should twist the stem while trying to bend it instead of just bending - right?


I am persuaded that this stem would have broken, regardless. Arguing about whether raffia would have prevented this outcome is moot as there are no more like it to test the hypothesis. However, you might give it a try sometime and assess whether you've got this right or not. One could use silicone tape as a cut paste like underlay and apply raffia over it - just in case what might go wrong does.

This product worked better in the sense that raffia does nothing in the event of a blow out. This product does. Raffia is just cheap craft store crap, but it works nicely --> cost effective. Alternatives all seem to be more expensive, but there are alternatives of which this self-amalgamating silicone tape is one. The oxygen transmission and water barrier properties have a lot of horticultural appeal.

I do agree that this coiling wire stuff is a waste of wire. It is simply what I tried on this tree 2 years ago. I actually like longitudinal wires secured with zip ties better - cheaper and easier to install/remove. I mentioned previously that I used this silicone tape to bend the trunk of my JWP 'Aoi'. Apparently no one followed the link since we are not discussing it too. With it, I laid longitudinal wires atop a layer of this silicone tape and secured the works with zip ties. I used two rebar levers to bend it and I bent it in two planes. No blow outs occurred and the longitudinal wires are holding the bend(s) in place nicely. The tree still seems quite healthy, even after also half bare rooting it this spring.

Let me explain it in an easier term and perhaps we will see if we are going in the right direction...

The last photo I posted up of your tree and commented on has the trunk going from left to right, with a slight bend down, towards the end.

So, if a trunk bends to the right, bending it further to the right in the same direction, is going to be easy. If your trunk bends down, bending it further down in the same direction, is going to be easy. Bending in any other direction is going to be hard.

In this photo... the first bend you placed was down. Correct? But, in what direction?
It was against the direction of what the tree is naturally already doing, which was to the right. The bend you created, in this photo, was towards the viewer. Correct? This action goes against how the tree is already naturally growing and will always be a more difficult bend because of this.

What I am saying is that next time try bending first down in direction of how the tree is naturally already going. To change it's direction, back to the left, seeing this is where you want to go... while bending down, rotate your hand to the left. This will cause the branch to dive down much easier and more fluid then a bend down first, and then a bend to the left, and in all actuality, you will find you are able to do a much more severe bend.

If you have wired it, you will want your coils to run in the same direction... as you wire, if you are right handed... you will wrap the wire towards your left hand. So when you twist to the left, you twist in the same direction.

 

[Adair M]

Let me explain it in an easier term and perhaps we will see if we are going in the right direction...

The last photo I posted up of your tree and commented on has the trunk going from left to right, with a slight bend down, towards the end.

So, if a trunk bends to the right, bending it further to the right in the same direction, is going to be easy. If your trunk bends down, bending it further down in the same direction, is going to be easy. Bending in any other direction is going to be hard.

In this photo... the first bend you placed was down. Correct? But, in what direction?
It was against the direction of what the tree is naturally already doing, which was to the right. The bend you created, in this photo, was towards the viewer. Correct? This action goes against how the tree is already naturally growing and will always be a more difficult bend because of this.

What I am saying is that next time try bending first down in direction of how the tree is naturally already going. To change it's direction, back to the left, seeing this is where you want to go... while bending down, rotate your hand to the left. This will cause the branch to dive down much easier and more fluid then a bend down first, and then a bend to the left, and in all actuality, you will find you are able to do a much more severe bend.

If you have wired it, you will want your coils to run in the same direction... as you wire, if you are right handed... you will wrap the wire towards your left hand. So when you twist to the left, you twist in the same direction.

When Juan and I bent this tree:



We wrapped it with the Japanese black plastic rope very tightly, inserted two screws, then bent it using the jack. Using the jack put the bend in slowly. We put in a few turns, tightened the guy wire to take up the slack, then did a few more turns, take up slack...

Probably took 5 minutes.

Our goal was to get the branch sticking out up at the right, just to the right of the upper end of the Jack to be horizontal. So, to accomplish this, we bent it down a little past horizontal, because even with out best efforts of taking up slack on the guy wire, we knew it would relax or stretch just a bit when we released the Jack.



Mission Accomplished! We pretty much let the tree decide where to bend.

 

[0soyoung]

The bend you created, in this photo, was towards the viewer. Correct?

Yes.

This action goes against how the tree is already naturally growing and will always be a more difficult bend because of this.

Hmmmm. Let me try to echo what I think you are saying (which seems quite interesting) to see if I am comprehending what I'm reading.

• The tree is growing up and to the right - therefore I need to bend it 'down' (pick a bend point, what is beyond rotates clockwise about the bend point - the foliage would be positioned on the right, but closer to the ground) instead of bending to come out of the screen, as I did.
• If the trunk had also been bending out of the screen toward the viewer, my breaks more likely would have been bends.
• If I had grabbed the upper trunk with my right hand and twisted clockwise (like driving a screw) while bending it onto the 180 degree opposite trajectory, it would have been less likely to have snapped. And if I had wanted the bend to reverse the trunk to the other side I would have grasped the upper trunk with my left hand and twisted counter-clockwise, but would have needed to wrap the wire in the opposite direction (so that it tightened as I twisted and bent).

??

 

[A Random User]

When Juan and I bent this tree:

View attachment 115188

We wrapped it with the Japanese black plastic rope very tightly, inserted two screws, then bent it using the jack. Using the jack put the bend in slowly. We put in a few turns, tightened the guy wire to take up the slack, then did a few more turns, take up slack...

Probably took 5 minutes.

Our goal was to get the branch sticking out up at the right, just to the right of the upper end of the Jack to be horizontal. So, to accomplish this, we bent it down a little past horizontal, because even with out best efforts of taking up slack on the guy wire, we knew it would relax or stretch just a bit when we released the Jack.

View attachment 115189

Mission Accomplished! We pretty much let the tree decide where to bend.

On a lot of the trees I posted in my threads about bending, I pretty much just tightened a bend that was already there.

Of course I have done a lot of bends that do not go with the flow... but these have always been harder to do, and have a better chance of failure.

 

[Adair M]

Oso,

Another concept for you to think about:

Once the branch is wired, and ready to be bent into position, don't bend the branch thinking the wire will hold it in place, instead, bend the wire, and the wire will take the branch along with it.

 

[A Random User]

Yes.

Hmmmm. Let me try to echo what I think you are saying (which seems quite interesting) to see if I am comprehending what I'm reading.

• The tree is growing up and to the right - therefore I need to bend it 'down' (pick a bend point, what is beyond rotates clockwise about the bend point - the foliage would be positioned on the right, but closer to the ground) instead of bending to come out of the screen, as I did.
• If the trunk had also been bending out of the screen toward the viewer, my breaks more likely would have been bends.
• If I had grabbed the upper trunk with my right hand and twisted clockwise (like driving a screw) while bending it onto the 180 degree opposite trajectory, it would have been less likely to have snapped. And if I had wanted the bend to reverse the trunk to the other side I would have grasped the upper trunk with my left hand and twisted counter-clockwise, but would have needed to wrap the wire in the opposite direction (so that it tightened as I twisted and bent).

??

I believe we are on the same page...

Remember the curves in the mountain road...

They go down and curve at the same time. One fluid bend.

One last thing... when you pull a branch down with Guy Wires, you only pull the branch down as far as you need too. When you push a branch down wrapped just in wire, you have to push further than you need to bend the wire in place to hold.
Use the Guy Wires! Even if you have wrapped it with wire. Use the wrapped wire to change it's direction during the bend, like the twist.

On heavy bending, if I even put on wrapped wire, it is for this purpose only... to introduce a secondary action like a twist or slight bend within the major bend, or it is for any smaller bending it want to do past the major bend.

 

[0soyoung]

I believe we are on the same page...

Okay, then. Thanks
What you've told me is very surprising (or 'eye opening').

 

[Adair M]

I believe we are on the same page...

Remember the curves in the mountain road...

They go down and curve at the same time. One fluid bend.

One last thing... when you pull a branch down with Guy Wires, you only pull the branch down as far as you need too. When you push a branch down wrapped just in wire, you have to push further than you need to bend the wire in place to hold.
Use the Guy Wires! Even if you have wrapped it with wire. Use the wrapped wire to change it's direction during the bend, like the twist.

On heavy bending, if I even put on wrapped wire, it is for this purpose only... to introduce a secondary action like a twist or slight bend within the major bend, or it is for any smaller bending it want to do past the major bend.

Actually, Sawgrass, when we guy wired my tree, and used the Jack to do it, we did bend it just a bit more past where we wanted it. Even using steel guy wire, when we removed the Jack, the tree straightened out just a bit. Maybe a quarter inch. But noticeable. That trunk is probably 2 inches thick where we were bending.

 

[Arcto]

@Adair M, www.papermart.com, click shipping, strapping. Different polyester and polyurethane shipping straps. Don't know if these are like the stuff you used from Japan though.

 

[Adair M]

@Adair M, www.papermart.com, click shipping, strapping. Different polyester and polyurethane shipping straps. Don't know if these are like the stuff you used from Japan though.

Thanks. Can't tell from the photos. I think the polyester strapping comes closest.

Juan had a ball of it. You know how twine is spun into a ball, and how as you use it, the ball gets smaller? It was like that.

Boon gave me some. Peter Tea gave it to him. Boon doesn't like it. "I like raffia", he says, and laughs.

 

[thomas22]

I was at House of Bonsai Friday and asked if they sell raffia and the lady said jute rope was better and they sell it there.
https://www.houseofbonsai.com/products/jute-rope-double-roll?variant=923286791

 

[0soyoung]

you can see how closely coiled I had the heavy gauge copper wire = per official practice, lots of compressive support.

OMG, @Adair M, look at this (from Nicola Crivelli in Italy). This is pretty much what I was trying to do a couple of years ago.

 

[Adair M]

OMG, @Adair M, look at this (from Nikola Crivelli in Italy). This is pretty much what I was trying to do a couple of years ago.

The copper wire looks to holding the vet wrap in place more than anything.

It's the guy wire that's doing the work of holding the curve.

 

[0soyoung]

As a starter, you can see how closely coiled I had the heavy gauge copper wire = per official practice, lots of compressive support.

I just stumbled upon this BNut thread where again the stem was also wrapped with wire coils - I still interpret the point to be compression support and ... as you said (above)

if there is sufficient supporting wire, then perhaps no wrapping stuff is needed! Except [maybe] as padding.

 

[Adair M]

Oso,

I've not done many of these radical bends. But, when I have, the technique I've employed is to lay a couple pieces of wire lengthwise along the trunk. Then wrap with raffia. Then bend. The "straight" pieces of wire,once bent provide better holding power than a coil, like a spring, does.