Recently "styled" shimpaku - any thoughts/suggestions?

[coh]

This is a shimpaku I picked up last year. I did some wiring and a little trimming a couple of weeks ago, now I'm waiting to see how many branches I killed by working on it at the wrong time of year. Anyway, it's a somewhat tall, older tree with some dead wood...both branches and interesting exposed areas on the trunk that don't show up on the photos. I have toyed the idea of reducing it to a much smaller plant but for now, I'd like to try to make it work as is. It can always be reduced later.

I'm posting two photos from the same viewpoint. The first is taken with a flash, the second with overhead/frontal light. The second allows you to see into the tree and gives a better sense of depth. If anyone has any thoughts or suggestions, please let me know. This is just a rough first styling.

Chris

 

[fore]

Nice photography Chris first off!

And for me, the tree's too tall for such a thin trunk. Makes it looks young. Maybe reducing the ht. to above the third branch on the right and start making a new apex. Plus, this gets rid of those three straight sections of secondary trunks. Just a thought.

 

[Poink88]

You wouldn't know how long I stared at this last night and I am lost. It is a tough material (for me). I just know that it is not working for me as it stands now. I have no idea how to proceed but believe chopping it down (and potentially getting several good cuttings out of it) is the way to go.

How much you can get away with each time is a mystery to me since this is a Juni. I hope someone knowledgeable will come along and offer a solid advise.

Good luck!!!

 

[october]

Hi Chris.. Rather than evaluate the work, I would like to evaluate the tree and based on that, I can give you my opinion. First, there are many styles going on here simultaneously which causes confliction. You have a literati upper portion of the tree and trunk, but it also has informal/ formal upright characteristic. Also, there is a sharp bend at the base. Which is fine, if it was a full bunjin style. That is perfectly acceptable in that context. There is some reverse taper at the bottom. Not too bad though. One again, for a bunjin, this is not so much of a problem. Also, there is a lot of foliage and branching for such a thin trunk.

If it were my tree. I would start reductions this year. Maybe take off the bottom 2 side branches this year or maybe that big thick branch on the right that is almost as thick as the trunk. Next year, take off what you left behind. Leave the entire top portion of the tree alone this year and maybe most of the season next year. In the Fall of next year or the following Spring, start working with shaping the top. You might be able to get it into a bonsai pot next year as well.

This is what I see after about 2 1/2 years of work with this tree. I think that with this plan, the once considered "flaws" now work quite well with this tree. Also, the trunk appears more powerful and old.

Rob

 

[A Random User]

Seeing that Rob has taken care of the tree... I will evaluate the work.

What is needed is a solid plan of how to move forward with this tree.
Along with some serious wiring knowledge and wire skill. This is by no
means meant an insult... For I applaud your attempt, and welcome
you to the world of wiring !!!

First off... let me say that the use of guide wires for someone new to
wiring should be off limits... Far to often they become kind of a lazy
way to style a tree. Wiring is essential to making good Bonsai,
and one is never going to learn how to wire if one doesn't put in the
time wiring.

The reason why one should wire a branch and bend it down, verses just
pulling it down with wire... is that you will never be able to control the
way the branch bends down with just pulling... Often when one is bending
a branch down that has been wired, you can and will need too, put a
twist in the branch so that the branch's foliage and secondary branches
all face the right side up. Your lower branch that has been guide wired,
could benefit from a counter-clockwise twist, which would put all off your
branches sticking straight up, in a horizontal plane.

I, when I first got in to Bonsai didn't want to wire a tree, I preferred the
clip and grow method... But, the reality is that one is never going to
make a descent bonsai without wire... and the sooner one embraces this
and begins the voyage, the sooner they will start making nice trees......


So, come up with a plan... remove unwanted foliage or branches, and
wire every branch to the tips of the branch that needs wiring... And
don't take short-cuts !!! Cause someone like me will know !!!

 

[coh]

That's a very nice virt (and analysis of the material), Rob - thanks for taking the time to do that! I'm going to take a good look at the tree with your suggestions in mind.

The tree is complicated and "strange". I've spent much of the past year wondering what I saw in it when I purchased it! I'm going to post some additional photos that show what we're dealing with. The branching is very one sided, and is also very stiff with some embedded deadwoon which makes bending tricky at best. The near-ground bend is very pronounced in some views, and the trunk is fairly thin with some areas of reverse taper. There is also quite a bit of deadwood on the trunk (again, doesn't show well in the photos), some interesting veins as well.

Most of the suggestions I've received have been to shorten the tree, leaving small areas of foliage with lots of deadwood. I've been resistant to that approach, but have had a difficult time envisioning how to make best use of the bulk of the trunk. So thanks again!

Chris

1. "Back"



2. One side



3. Other side

 

[coh]

Dario and Chris,

I appreciate your thoughts! As I noted in my response to Rob (with the additional pics), it is a difficult piece of material. Your suggestions agree with the majority of the suggestions I've received from people who have seen the tree in person - most think it would be best to reduce or even remove much of the top and make a much smaller, more sparse tree. I am still considering that but would like to try to use the existing trunk if possible. Will post updates...thanks again!

Chris

 

[coh]

Seeing that Rob has taken care of the tree... I will evaluate the work.

What is needed is a solid plan of how to move forward with this tree.
Along with some serious wiring knowledge and wire skill. This is by no
means meant an insult... For I applaud your attempt, and welcome
you to the world of wiring !!!

Don't worry, I'm only taking it as a partial insult

I've only been doing bonsai for about 3 years, so wiring is an evolving skill. With this tree, I didn't really have a plan (that's really the bigger problem)...I had some ideas, which required moving some of the branches in the upper part of the tree. So I wired and moved a few of those. Unfortunately I haven't really done much wiring on junipers before, and I found that I was breaking some of the smaller branches (at their junction with other branches). Got some good tips on that at the bonsai colloquium this weekend, but probably too late for a few of the branches. And since it apparently isn't the best time of year to wire junipers, I'm holding off additional work for now.

First off... let me say that the use of guide wires for someone new to
wiring should be off limits... Far to often they become kind of a lazy
way to style a tree. Wiring is essential to making good Bonsai,
and one is never going to learn how to wire if one doesn't put in the
time wiring.

The reason why one should wire a branch and bend it down, verses just
pulling it down with wire... is that you will never be able to control the
way the branch bends down with just pulling... Often when one is bending
a branch down that has been wired, you can and will need too, put a
twist in the branch so that the branch's foliage and secondary branches
all face the right side up. Your lower branch that has been guide wired,
could benefit from a counter-clockwise twist, which would put all off your
branches sticking straight up, in a horizontal plane.

The guy wires here were just used as a "quick and dirty" way to see how things would look with those big branches pulled down...not intended to be permanent. I have found that it is sometimes possible to get a branch where you want it strictly with guy wires. Other times, it is not. Each situation must be evaluated...

I, when I first got in to Bonsai didn't want to wire a tree, I preferred the
clip and grow method... But, the reality is that one is never going to
make a descent bonsai without wire... and the sooner one embraces this
and begins the voyage, the sooner they will start making nice trees......


So, come up with a plan... remove unwanted foliage or branches, and
wire every branch to the tips of the branch that needs wiring... And
don't take short-cuts !!! Cause someone like me will know !!!

I don't mind or avoid wiring, I actually enjoy doing it (even though the results vary). The planning is a bigger problem. It's all a work in progress!

 

[Poink88]

...With this tree, I didn't really have a plan (that's really the bigger problem)...

Awareness of this is good. However, to me, it is better not to proceed (do nothing) if you do not know where you are heading.

 

[october]

Yes, although it is a problematic tree. It has some workable features. A slight turn of the tree might diminish the look of the reverse taper. I do agree with you about keeping the trunk. To cut it back might have some advantages. However, if you cut back, you are still going to have a straight trunk with some reverse taper and straight sections. Only now, the whole tree will just have this straight trunk. In my opinion, making it more noticeable.

As far as right time of year. You can work on junipers now. If I found some nice juniper material, I would probably style it now.

Rob

 

[Dav4]

Personally, I think this shimpaku has alot going for it. The trunk has movement down low, and also, has some age to it that will only improve with thoughtful carving. You have multiple trunkline options, too. Finally, the tree appears to be healthy. Personally, I don't generally feel comfortable making styling recommendations on trees like this unless I have the material in front of me ( I do like the Rob's virt...perhaps pictures from other sides with the upper roots exposed may show a better front). However, I do think less is more with material like this. You just cant keep all the branches and trunks and have a pleasing image. As hard as it might be, I think you've got simplify things and either chop this tree down to one of the lower branches (not my favorite option here), or pick a trunk line and lose the other upper trunks and go from there. Fwiw, I think this one could be alot of fun to work on.

ps As far as I know, you can work on Junipers almost any time ( I pretty much wire all year round...when I have time)...just be careful about heavy bending during the heat of the summer.

 

[Ris]

This is what I see from picture 3.

 

[coh]

Personally, I think this shimpaku has alot going for it. The trunk has movement down low, and also, has some age to it that will only improve with thoughtful carving. You have multiple trunkline options, too. Finally, the tree appears to be healthy. Personally, I don't generally feel comfortable making styling recommendations on trees like this unless I have the material in front of me ( I do like the Rob's virt...perhaps pictures from other sides with the upper roots exposed may show a better front). However, I do think less is more with material like this. You just cant keep all the branches and trunks and have a pleasing image. As hard as it might be, I think you've got simplify things and either chop this tree down to one of the lower branches (not my favorite option here), or pick a trunk line and lose the other upper trunks and go from there. Fwiw, I think this one could be alot of fun to work on.

ps As far as I know, you can work on Junipers almost any time ( I pretty much wire all year round...when I have time)...just be careful about heavy bending during the heat of the summer.

Dave, thanks for your thoughts! Unfortunately, my recollection from the last repotting is that this tree is not blessed with very good surface roots, so I don't think that will play into any decisions in a major way. I will have a look, though, before making any final decisions.

As for working on junipers...my comments were based on information presented at the recent Colloquium in Rochester. In particular, Ryan Neil (while doing major pruning, wiring and bending on a juniper) stated that this is a bad time to be wiring junipers due to cambial separation...that the better time was late late winter/early spring (preferred) or late summer before the fall growing period. I don't have enough experience to know how strictly this rule should be applied...perhaps it only applies to severe bending as you suggest?

Chris

 

[coh]

This is what I see from picture 3.

Ris, that certainly is a unique solution! The lower trunk will not support this type of arrangement, as it remains straight below the bend. However, someone locally had suggested inclining the tree at about a 35 - 45 deg angle and making use of the lower branches, and making a feature of the lower trunk bend...something like this, with and without the deadwood "spike":



which is pretty much the opposite of Rob's suggestion. What do people think about something like this?

Chris

 

[fourteener]

I would do what I could to chase the foliage back to a smaller window. The tree has been allowed too much extension for the size of the trunk. Cutting off some of the length, getting more light to the inner branches and see what kind of back budding you can get. In two or three years I bet you could really compress the foliage to a more design friendly distance from the trunk.

 

[Ris]

Hi Chris,
Just remember you hold the keys to this tree future have fun with it.
I screwed up a cedar following advice of others even though I had a different idea
For the tree it now sits hidden behind the bench to grow out...


Ris

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Scrolling through the thread, photo 3 in post #6 looked like a good front. I'd be tempted to go with the virt in post 14, you're really making the best of what the tree has to offer.

At any angle, the thick upper branch that emerges as one of 3 is problematic. It's too big for the position on the tree, but it has so much foliage that its hard to visualize around.

Some tips I learned taking workshops with Kathy Shaner, returning with this same challenging juniper each year for several years included:

1. Identify and accentuate the good points (trunk height and movement here).

2. Remember this formula: character = how the tree responded to some traumatic event(s).

Simulate the traumatic event, and show off the tree's response...repeat as necessary. Break the problematic branch about halfway up, and pull it off. Let it weather and accentuate the tree's response.

Don't hesitate to split branches to add density, movement, and to make it easier to get things where they need to go. Best to wait until March, but it's good to remember the option. More character.

3. Take it in steps, do a little hand carving and move branches, placing foliage to frame those good points.

4. Put lots of movement in branches and let wire dig in. More trauma, more character.

 

[coh]

Scrolling through the thread, photo 3 in post #6 looked like a good front. I'd be tempted to go with the virt in post 14, you're really making the best of what the tree has to offer.

At any angle, the thick upper branch that emerges as one of 3 is problematic. It's too big for the position on the tree, but it has so much foliage that its hard to visualize around.

Some tips I learned taking workshops with Kathy Shaner, returning with this same challenging juniper each year for several years included:

1. Identify and accentuate the good points (trunk height and movement here).

2. Remember this formula: character = how the tree responded to some traumatic event(s).

Simulate the traumatic event, and show off the tree's response...repeat as necessary. Break the problematic branch about halfway up, and pull it off. Let it weather and accentuate the tree's response.

Don't hesitate to split branches to add density, movement, and to make it easier to get things where they need to go. Best to wait until March, but it's good to remember the option. More character.

3. Take it in steps, do a little hand carving and move branches, placing foliage to frame those good points.

4. Put lots of movement in branches and let wire dig in. More trauma, more character.

Good suggestions, Brian - thanks for responding! I especially like the reminder to "Identify and accentuate the good points (trunk height and movement here)." Sometimers I get caught up in things and forget that. In this case, I was looking at some junipers in Amy Liang's book and was thinking I could replicate the feel of those trees...which have fairly large foliage masses. Problem is, her trunks are larger and more "interesting", and the foliage masses are more compact. The latter could probably be achieved here with time (as suggested by fourteener) but that trunk ain't getting any bigger anytime soon.

Not sure yet if I'm going to go "tall or small" with this one but the comments here will be helpful.

Your blog post is also helpful. I have seen the branch (or trunk) splitting procedure demonstrated, but have never tried it myself. It might be applicable here, as many of the branch/trunk segments are quite old and stiff, with embedded or exposed deadwood areas.

Thanks again to all who responded...any additional ideas or suggestions, please let me know.

Chris

 

[fore]

Great post Brian, but I'm not sure letting wires dig in adds character. For me, it detracts.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Great post Brian, but I'm not sure letting wires dig in adds character. For me, it detracts.

Think longer-term...which of these branches do you think will have better character in 3 years?