Soulution for Styling Apex

[Neli]

Chris, I was trying to clear few point for Eric.
Sawgrass,
I actually clearly sated that it is not always done like this...but that I have seen it done many times, and on many trees.
Just wanted to show another way of doing things without imposing them on anyone.

 

[A Random User]

Chris, I was trying to clear few point for Eric.
Sawgrass,
I actually clearly sated that it is not always done like this...but that I have seen it done many times, and on many trees.
Just wanted to show another way of doing things without imposing them on anyone.

I understand, totally and agree, I was not trying to step on your toes !!!
I am not trying to impose my views on others either, but felt it was wrong
When I was told that what I was doing was incorrect. Your posts in my view
Just confirmed this. If you feel I was using what you posted in a
Negative way, then I am sorry, for this was not at all my intention.
Thanks

 

[Vin]

All in all; a very informative thread. Thanks!

 

[Poink88]

This technique (OP) is one way...but I dare say it is the "quick and dirty" way. It works but if you develop branches properly, you won't need this technique.

It sure have its use and a good technique to know/use in a pinch. JMHO.

 

[A Random User]

This technique (OP) is one way...but I dare say it is the "quick and dirty" way. It works but if you develop branches properly, you won't need this technique.

It sure have its use and a good technique to know/use in a pinch. JMHO.

Just so I and the others might better understand your definition of "quick and dirty",
Would you say that the technique that Neli pointed out, is in your view the same ?
By me asking I am not trying to start a fight. Just trying to better understand your
View.
Thanks

 

[Neli]

I understand, totally and agree, I was not trying to step on your toes !!!
I am not trying to impose my views on others either, but felt it was wrong
When I was told that what I was doing was incorrect. Your posts in my view
Just confirmed this. If you feel I was using what you posted in a
Negative way, then I am sorry, for this was not at all my intention.
Thanks

You have not stepped on my toes.
I just thought you did not understand that the way I posted is not the only way...just one of the ways...and I found it different and not talked about much so wanted to bringit to your attention.
I am not offended. You did nothing wrong.

 

[Neli]

Just so I and the others might better understand your definition of "quick and dirty",
Would you say that the technique that Neli pointed out, is in your view the same ?
By me asking I am not trying to start a fight. Just trying to better understand your
View.
Thanks

The way I badly explained...is different from the way you showed. I dont know why You are doing that circle...is to look better faster? There is no need. Apex is not really hard to create.
I am leaving in the morning for London...so need to do a lot. If I get a chance I will make some drawings so it is understood better, but I must admit is the same principle as what Smoke drew...with slight modification...

 

[Poink88]

Just so I and the others might better understand your definition of "quick and dirty",
Would you say that the technique that Neli pointed out, is in your view the same ?
By me asking I am not trying to start a fight. Just trying to better understand your
View.
Thanks

I haven't read the entire thread...just your OP so I cannot say (yet). I am a bit busy and cannot go through everything right now but did a quick scan of Neli's posts and it may be similar to what I am referring to.

Note that I am not into juniper and pines much yet and know that they are styled differently from broad leaf but I've seen nice looking bonsai with these "comb overs" and from a far and in pics, they look great but closer inspection shows (to me) the contrived way it was attained.

 

[A Random User]

The way I badly explained...is different from the way you showed. I dont know why You are doing that circle...is to look better faster? There is no need. Apex is not really hard to create.
I am leaving in the morning for London...so need to do a lot. If I get a chance I will make some drawings so it is understood better, but I must admit is the same principle as what Smoke drew...with slight modification...

No problem, have fun in London, I lived there for awhile and wish I was going !!!
Post up for others to see when you get a chance .

 

[A Random User]

I haven't read the entire thread...just your OP so I cannot say (yet). I am a bit busy and cannot go through everything right now but did a quick scan of Neli's posts and it may be similar to what I am referring to.

Note that I am not into juniper and pines much yet and know that they are styled differently from broad leaf but I've seen nice looking bonsai with these "comb overs" and from a far and in pics, they look great but closer inspection shows (to me) the contrived way it was attained.

No problem, by the way I was referring to the posts where Neli
Talked about taking the top branch to construct a tree.

 

[A Random User]

In the mean time, I am trying to compose a thread to discuss bar branching,
Dealing with when is this acceptable, or if it even is... also I think reverse taper
Should probably be thrown in. And how to deal with it, and when and
Where this might become an issue.

I will post it up as soon as I am able... might not be tonight, but soon.

 

[Poink88]

I am writing an article on IBC which I need to finish...

...and why I am writing the article on IBC of what I saw there.

Makes me wonder why for IBC only...is B-Nut not worthy? Just wondering.

 

[Neli]

Makes me wonder why for IBC only...is B-Nut not worthy? Just wondering.

Let me finish it first...then I shall put it on my blog and here.
Bnut is very worthy...I am sort of gathering my thoughts, and trying to remember everything I was thought at the moment...The problem is old posts can not be corrected or things added so I really need to think in chronological order not to forget something.
I will post it here when it is nicely done.

 

[october]

I think I am seeing one reason why problems are arising here and possibly in other topics. I think opinions are crossing over into facts. I have no claim to any opinion in regards to this apex thread. Wrong, accepted, cheating, possible, impossible, good, bad or whatever. I put together these virts in order to visualize my words from earlier on in this thread. These virts are based on horticulture. Just simple scenarios on what you could and most likely will be dealing with concerning each route. There is a saying "You are entitled to your own opinion. However, you are not entitled to your own facts". Apexes aren't complicated. However, when they are structured in a unorthodox manner from the start. It might make it more difficult in the future to keep them healthy and in scale.

Rob

 

[A Random User]

I think I am seeing one reason why problems are arising here and possibly in other topics. I think opinions are crossing over into facts. I have no claim to any opinion in regards to this apex thread. Wrong, accepted, cheating, possible, impossible, good, bad or whatever. I put together these virts in order to visualize my words from earlier on in this thread. These virts are based on horticulture. Just simple scenarios on what you could and most likely will be dealing with concerning each route. There is a saying "You are entitled to your own opinion. However, you are not entitled to your own facts". Apexes aren't complicated. However, when they are structured in a unorthodox manner from the start. It might make it more difficult in the future to keep them healthy and in scale.

Rob

Rob, this really just irks you doesn't it...
I just don't understand the need for you to try and prove
What I have suggested as wrong. You have suggested your
Idea, I have suggested mine... Other than me saying, I don't think
You need to put up a leader, I have not said that your way of
Doing it is incorrect, but yet now you are accusing me of not
Having facts on my side. This is just incorrect.

I mean, I have clearly shown through my illustrations, how the
apex would progress, and how through a short amount of time,
It would be worked. Does this idea I have demonstrated have flaws,
Of course it does, but you insinuating that I am giving advice that
Fiirst I haven't actually seen develop into proper apex, and second,
If done would ruin a tree, and cause years of reworking. This
Couldn't be further from the truth. Sorry...

Now, I am sure I will get some sniveling comment from someone
About how I am being sensitive, and can't take a difference of opinions...
But, in all essence I am virtually being accused of either not knowing
What I am talking about, or out right lying to people. And in my new
Civilized way of trying to act here at this forum, I feel is just down
Right insulting.

Now, I too can draw up an illustration if you like, that would demonstrate
The flaws of your way of doing it. For instance showing how the top
Because left upright, will always grow faster than the bottom branches,
Therefore needing alot more pruning to try a divert energy away, or
As mentioned, if the foliage at the top is weak and scraggly, it has a better
Chance if drying out and dying, that unless you only plan on having one
Branch at the top, something else that grows up here will still need to be wired
In out forming the T shape that I believe Neli was referring too, which if
One looks at the second set of illustrations I drew up, you still get too,
But I don't think that I have too... Because I am not telling people
Not to do as you have suggested. I am merely telling them they don't
Have too, to achieve the same thing.

I just don't get the reasoning behind there only having to be one way ???
So, now I have been insulted by Smoke, because I didn't answer a question...
Which by the way, I didn't even see till after the fact, I have been told, that
My way is just a quick and dirty way, and now told I don't have the
Right to my own facts. When clearly I have shown that my suggestion gets
to the exact same point as yours and the others, with no more problems than yours
Or the others, and probably In the same amount of time I say probably, because
I have never done a side by side comparison.

So, what gives ??? Do you want me to just say your right ? Isn't going to happen,
Because I don't believe you are.

Side note... you will notice no insults thrown...
This is the disclaimer, I guess from now on I need to put on my posts.

 

[Smoke]

Your not making the best use of your time Stacy. You could fix this with a pen and a phone.....

 

[A Random User]

Your not making the best use of your time Stacy. You could fix this with a pen and a phone.....

I agree, I should be working on my trees.
I did a lot of work today seeing that I have a whole bunch of folks coming over
for the 4th, and thought I would take a break. My arms and hands are sore, seeing
that I had to go through and sand our deck furniture., Tomorrow, I have to go
through and stain and Lacquer. I am hoping it doesn't rain, if it does it will surely
slow the drying time down. Then on Thursday I have to mow, weed-eed (is that correct?),
then rake leaves... Worst part is that everyone s coming over to swim in my pool, and the
darn thing is just taking to long to clear up. See, our pool doesn't have a screen, and
though I have repeatedly suggested to my wife, that we should at least get a pool cover,
she says, why ??? That they are expensive... I guess she figures because she has me,
to sit and sweep the leaves out, that we don't really need to spend the money. Then
Friday morning I have to go and get some wood to replace a couple of rotting boards
on the deck. This has got to be done before 3pm, when everyone is suppose to come
over... The funny thing is that now they are saying that it is suppose to storm on Friday,
so more than likely nobody will even be able to swim, or sit on the furniture, on the deck,
That instead we will more than likely end up inside after all of the work that I have done.
Not to mention the money being spent. When all I want to do is just work on my trees,
But hey, on the bright side, next week, after working on my trees I can just kick back
in my pool.

But then again, I just remembered I have to start remodeling our back room... see, we bought
a house that was built in 1918... really cool, looks literally like a castle, has plenty of room
that really was never designed over the years properly... and I am going through opening up
walls to better make use of the space available. So, I have to tear down a couple of walls, the
room had some crappy synthetic wood flooring put in, so I have to pull this up and re-tile. Also,
I have to cut and put in a couple of windows, re-run the electricity, new fixtures, and possibly
rework some of the duct work. Again, when all I want to do is work on my trees.

 

[Eric Group]

Eric,
Lets go back on topic. You remember I used the word cheating? That is how it looks like when you see a Japanese styled juniper. Why do I say That? Because it does not follow the conventional left right back...though there is some RULES behind the "madness".
No crossing branches, branches EVENTUALLY extend radially from the trunk...pads are not supposed to be directly one over the other.
That is why I laughed when I heard Al's statement. My reaction was the same.
I am sure you thought bringing the trunkline down as a first primary branch looks ridiculous...
But believe me, many junipers in Japan are styled like that. This is not something I invented...It was thought to me.
Just remember that the traditional Japanese style is very compact compared to the more natural style some people prefer.
Japanese are not bothered much with side branches even when growing a juniper from scratch...You dont know how shocked I was when Oyakata chopped most of the branches and jinned them on Junipers when he was teaching me first styling of junipers.
This is the main reason I started the article on styling junipers. hope I will finish it one day)...that is exactly where I am going.... To explain the unconventional way junipers are styled.
I want to give you some examples of it. On the first styling first branches can come from the top (apex ) area, From the top and behind...I know it sounds strange...but believe that is how it is done many times. Not that it is not done in the more conventional way but just that they do it like that as well. That is what I saw and here are some pictures of first styling of junipers done under supervision. You can not just do things like that out of your own ignorance. You are there to be thought and Oyakata will sit with me for hours explaining...watching me and correcting me. And for one at that stage of my learning process I would not have dared cut off big branch unless I asked him first.
It always started with:
For example: Make a wind swept...
He! Windswept!!!! Juniper???? How does one do that???
He will leave me puzzled for some time and then come and say. Lets make a virtual. Or tell me make a virtual! So he can tell me where I went wrong later.
Ones the plan was in place usually he will come and we will cut off all the large branches together...or tell me...remove this one as well.
See this junipers? It is not that I went to Japan and invented a new way of styling... or that I am trying to share weird and wrong ideas here. I am simply showing you how they do it at times....and many times.

.

Great info as usual Neli! Thanks for posting all of this!

I am well aware my dear that you were not the in enter of this style, I merely referred to it as your style in my post because you were the first to bring it up... Clearly Sawgrass did not really invent his pig tail/ cork screw style, Smoke was prolly not the first to create a question mark and I doubt the Bonsai4me dude was the first to make an apex from a bar branch... I was just labeling them that way in my post to reference who brought it up here. I have learned that in bonsai the only constant is a complete and utter lack of consistency! Give me a room full of accomplished Bonsai artists presented with identical material and you are likely to get a room full of drastically different styled trees, much like you would if you give a bunch of sketch artists their own pens and blank pieces of paper... The different styles and ways to achieve a somewhat similar goal are part of what is so interesting about Bonsai to me, and threads like this are great because they show us so many different views! I thank you for the ohh so detailed post here, I am quite familiar with your IBC "article" and I have used the technique of bending the main leader like this to create a branch, forming the crown from secondary branches a few times myself. I find it to be useful especially when dealing with long runners or laying a foundation for the future with a young tree that has grown much to tall.

 

[october]

Rob, this really just irks you doesn't it...
I just don't understand the need for you to try and prove
What I have suggested as wrong. You have suggested your
Idea, I have suggested mine... Other than me saying, I don't think
You need to put up a leader, I have not said that your way of
Doing it is incorrect, but yet now you are accusing me of not
Having facts on my side. This is just incorrect.

I mean, I have clearly shown through my illustrations, how the
apex would progress, and how through a short amount of time,
It would be worked. Does this idea I have demonstrated have flaws,
Of course it does, but you insinuating that I am giving advice that
Fiirst I haven't actually seen develop into proper apex, and second,
If done would ruin a tree, and cause years of reworking. This
Couldn't be further from the truth. Sorry...

Now, I am sure I will get some sniveling comment from someone
About how I am being sensitive, and can't take a difference of opinions...
But, in all essence I am virtually being accused of either not knowing
What I am talking about, or out right lying to people. And in my new
Civilized way of trying to act here at this forum, I feel is just down
Right insulting.

Now, I too can draw up an illustration if you like, that would demonstrate
The flaws of your way of doing it. For instance showing how the top
Because left upright, will always grow faster than the bottom branches,
Therefore needing alot more pruning to try a divert energy away, or
As mentioned, if the foliage at the top is weak and scraggly, it has a better
Chance if drying out and dying, that unless you only plan on having one
Branch at the top, something else that grows up here will still need to be wired
In out forming the T shape that I believe Neli was referring too, which if
One looks at the second set of illustrations I drew up, you still get too,
But I don't think that I have too... Because I am not telling people
Not to do as you have suggested. I am merely telling them they don't
Have too, to achieve the same thing.

I just don't get the reasoning behind there only having to be one way ???
So, now I have been insulted by Smoke, because I didn't answer a question...
Which by the way, I didn't even see till after the fact, I have been told, that
My way is just a quick and dirty way, and now told I don't have the
Right to my own facts. When clearly I have shown that my suggestion gets
to the exact same point as yours and the others, with no more problems than yours
Or the others, and probably In the same amount of time I say probably, because
I have never done a side by side comparison.

So, what gives ??? Do you want me to just say your right ? Isn't going to happen,
Because I don't believe you are.

Side note... you will notice not insults thrown...
This is the disclaimer, I guess from now on I need to put on my posts.

Stacy, my post was not directed at you. It was to the thread in general. Just putting forth both sides so people can see both ways. It was not an insult towards you at all. I have not read every single reply in this thread. If you covered the pros and cons, I must have missed it. Sorry if it seems like I was somehow critizing you. I am not. The apexes on your junipers look very nice and I sincerely hope they continue to do well. I am not being sarcastic either. You have some very nice junipers and I would like to see them continue to do well.

Rob

 

[A Random User]

Stacy, my post was not directed at you. It was to the thread in general. Just putting forth both sides so people can see both ways. It was not an insult towards you at all. I have not read every single reply in this thread. If you covered the pros and cons, I must have missed it. Sorry if it seems like I was somehow critizing you. I am not. The apexes on your junipers look very nice and I sincerely hope they continue to do well. I am not being sarcastic either. You have some very nice junipers and I would like to see them continue to do well.

Rob

And I thank you for putting up your way of doing it.
This was the whole reasoning for me starting the thread...
so that ideas could be given to people who might be struggling
with this portion of the tree.
Thank you for the compliments regarding my trees.
I think you do outstanding work and are a real contribution to
this forum !!!