SS or Black steel tools?

[Shima]

Not necessarily. Really a lot come into play for performance of a steel and big determining factor is heat treatment. Much more than just the composition of the steel. A good reputable producer or seller should have a good heat treat sourced to get the most out of the steel they use.

It's been said already but carbon steel will hold and edge better than ss. This is not universally true but for an SS and CS at the same price point the carbon steel will perform better. The reason is because of the chromium content in SS. While it gives the steel corrosion resistance it also makes the steel more wear resistant. This makes the steel harder to machine or work thus increasing production cost. So in order to offer an SS tool at a similar price point to that of a CS tool they will use a cheaper grade of SS. What American Bonsai and many others use is 440c steel. A cheap stainless but works well enough.

There are very high performing stainless steels out there but the high wear resistance make them impractical and too costly to use in something like bonsai tools. Another thing to consider is tool maintenance. Many high performing stainless steels are alloyed with chromium and vanadium which create hard carbides in addition to being heat treated to a high rockwell hardness (HRC). Steels like that require diamond and ceramic abrasives to cut and sharpen the steel. Depending on application you need to find a balance between performance and ease of maintenance. I own a set of expensive waterstones from my knife enthusiast days as well as diamond plates so this does not bother me. But average person will not own expensive sharpening equipment so it'd be difficult to sell expensive SS tools with high performance.

Many carbon steels on the other hand have a fine grain that produces a keener edge and is easier to sharpen. For most practical purposes no one really needs the performance of high end SS steels.

If you do not live in an overly humid area and you're responsible enough to occasionally clean/maintain your tools buy carbon steel. They will perform much better.

The more premium Japanese bonsai tool makers will use "blue" or "white" steel. The better grades have a higher carbon content which improve wear resistance and edge holding.

Finally...some metallurgy. It's not just SS or black.
And here's a bit of back story on Masakuni and a certain scissor favored by Peter Warren who knows a thing or two. http://saruyama-bonsai.blogspot.com/2011/05/tool-of-champions.html

And I DO live in an overly humid area and couldn't do without Corrosion X. Sold at fishing shops. None of my black tools have rust. I wipe it on now and then, at least the cutting edge, leave it on and wipe it off the next day. https://www.amazon.com/product-reviews/B0009GYRWW

 

[just.wing.it]

You could do it like half the guys at my work....just buy the cheapest tools you can, and replace when needed....
.....not my methodology, just a thought.

 

[Shima]

SS takes and keeps an edge for shit. There is a reason sushi chefs prefer only carbon steel for cutting. I have a drawer full of Henkle and woustoff knives at home all as probably worth a grand or more and can't stand any of them. I have an old Cutco knife I bought 39 years ago that will take an edge like a straight razor. Just a cheap iron knife but so good.

They will make you look like a pro though if your into that sort of thing though. I don't judge people by the tools they keep, only what they do with them.

That goes for my day job too. Carpenter.

Yep. Long ago I bought a Solingen steel French knife from a butcher who was retiring and selling his gear. Leave it out to dry on it's own and the rust begins.
A SS edge can't touch it.

 

[just.wing.it]

Corrosion

Ah, yeah, Corrosion X....
That stuff is different than it used to be....
The new stuff is clear....I remember the old neon yellow stuff that seemed to glow in daylight... I remember once, when pulling a motor out of a buddy's camaro, he was under the car holding the Y pipe in place while another buddy set the bolts from above, after they had used Corrosion X on something in there....and I saw a drop of that glowing yellow chemical drip straight into his eye !
Yes, he freaked out! But he didn't drop the part, toughed it out.....
We all had a good laugh.

 

[Adair M]

Finally...some metallurgy. It's not just SS or black.
And here's a bit of back story on Masakuni and a certain scissor favored by Peter Warren who knows a thing or two. http://saruyama-bonsai.blogspot.com/2011/05/tool-of-champions.html

And I DO live in an overly humid area and couldn't do without Corrosion X. Sold at fishing shops. None of my black tools have rust. I wipe it on now and then, at least the cutting edge, leave it on and wipe it off the next day. https://www.amazon.com/product-reviews/B0009GYRWW

I have seen and tried those Ikebana scissors... really strange scissors. I personally don't care for them. I think Suthen likes them, though.

 

[JudyB]

You could do it like half the guys at my work....just buy the cheapest tools you can, and replace when needed....
.....not my methodology, just a thought.

I did this, but 2 years @ $35 does not compute if the Kaneshin are good for more than 3. or the Makasuni for 4.

 

[Adair M]

I did this, but 2 years @ $35 does not compute if the Kaneshin are good for more than 3. or the Makasuni for 4.

Take care of Masakuni, and they're good for life! I still use some concave cutters and wire cutters I've had for 40 years!

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Black carbon steel. Used both, but as I add more/replace tools, I'm only buying black cs.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

I did this, but 2 years @ $35 does not compute if the Kaneshin are good for more than 3. or the Makasuni for 4.

And you should get WAY more than 3-4 years on your tools. I'm still using my first pair of wire cutters, black CS by Kiku from 1994. If I break them, I may just quit bonsai.

 

[JudyB]

The Roshi scissors are not broken but do have some divits in the blades that cause some tearing instead of a clean cut. That is why I'm seeking a new brand and don't want to waste any $ on the wrong type again.

 

[Stickroot]

SS takes and keeps an edge for shit. There is a reason sushi chefs prefer only carbon steel for cutting. I have a drawer full of Henkle and woustoff knives at home all as probably worth a grand or more and can't stand any of them. I have an old Cutco knife I bought 39 years ago that will take an edge like a straight razor. Just a cheap iron knife but so good.

They will make you look like a pro though if your into that sort of thing though. I don't judge people by the tools they keep, only what they do with them.

That goes for my day job too. Carpenter.

You are spot on sir!

 

[Paradox]

I use SS fillet knives to clean fish and I clean a lot of fish. Nothing worse than a dull knife; makes the job a lot harder and does a messy job. They stay pretty sharp (I have knicked myself by accident and it doesnt take much to get a deep cut) and are easy to sharpen when I need to. So far I like my SS tools over my CS ones that I first bought. However my SS ones might be a better company/tool than the CS ones.

 

[Stickroot]

All mine are hand me downs. CS. No brand name visible. Use them almost daily in season.
I have had them for almost 15 years, leave them outside all the time, in the rain, water them and cut wire with all of them. Once in a while I soak them in Vinegar and them wipe them down with Camellia oil pretty heavy.
It's fun for me when someone is over for some work, I will grab there fancy SS and act like I'm gonna cut wire with there branch cutter, the look on their face
@Gdy2000

 

[Paradox]

I just need to find proper instructions on how to sharpen bonsai tools so I can keep mine sharp

 

[Smoke]

If I want to look good, I'll prune in my bikini,

I'm gonna need more details and some pics....PM sent!

 

[Shima]

All mine are hand me downs. CS. No brand name visible. Use them almost daily in season.
I have had them for almost 15 years, leave them outside all the time, in the rain, water them and cut wire with all of them. Once in a while I soak them in Vinegar and them wipe them down with Camellia oil pretty heavy.
It's fun for me when someone is over for some work, I will grab there fancy SS and act like I'm gonna cut wire with there branch cutter, the look on their face
@Gdy2000
View attachment 153027

Good Lord! Have you no shame?

 

[Shima]

I have seen and tried those Ikebana scissors... really strange scissors. I personally don't care for them. I think Suthen likes them, though.

The big curvy handled ones? They pinch my thumb pad. Etsuro also makes bonsai tools. The one Peter likes look like standard issue scissors.

 

[Potawatomi13]

"If I want to look good, I'll prune in my bikini, "

Indeed, pictures please.

 

[zelk]

That seems counterintuitive to me that the Carbon would keep an edge better than SS @Dav4? That would be my main goal actually for the edge to stay sharper longer. I'm not all that fabulous at tool maintenance, I mean I oil and wipe em down, but sharpening isn't my strong suit... But I do not use the wrong tool for the job, I use my branch cutters for anything more than twigs, so am not happy with the current pair.

I've found a couple good deals on the SS version, @rockm, only a few bucs difference, so it's really about performance at this point between the two types.

Stainless steel is harder but that comes at the cost of being more brittle. under some conditions it can shatter as opposed to deform and that would make it tougher at keeping an edge. I'm taking a guess as to what rockm might be saying.

 

[twisted trees]

Two pages of scissors insight. Perhaps you should buy both.