Technical vs. artistic

[TinyArt]

Most children have it until it's taken from them in a world where we teach everyone to color inside the lines.

Nobody says "oh, I can't even draw a straight line" as a little kid.
Nobody's a perfectionist then, either -- "right" is what's satisfying, then, not what meets a standard.

Anecdote: I had become horribly stuck when it came to drawing, by my early 20s, but discovered -- because a kid asked me to make something with them -- that I could quickly cut simple, recognizable silhouettes freehand and unfold paper chains of frogs, jumping deer, etc. Apparently my "critical" component couldn't recognize things to kvetch about proportions.

...guess it's just as well I cut righty, then, for the sake of my trees?

 

[Fidur]

I think creativity can't be learnt.
When I was an amateur photographer, in my first year, I learnt all the technical principals, in my second year I won +2000$ in the two photography contests I applied. There were seasoned photographers trying to get the prizes. I simply had good eye for photography, and that can't be learnt.

 

[leatherback]

I simply had good eye for photography, and that can't be learnt.

I disagree. There are clear things in photography that make good pictures and interesting images.

I think creativity can't be learnt.

I agree. Everyone is creative. Some people are just hampered by thinking too much about it. But we all as kids have played with sticks thinking we are building the greatest fort or have our doll houses playing family. That is all creative, imaginative, thinking. If you then know a few technical basics ..

 

[Fidur]

I disagree. There are clear things in photography that make good pictures and interesting images.

Yes.
In bonsai there are also clear hints on what species, styles and works can be successful, but not everybody is able to create a great bonsai out of that. (and I mean I am not able)

 

[Bnana]

Creativity is something you can develop and learn. Any healthy person has a creative potential you can develop more or less.

 

[ShadyStump]

A mathematician can see beauty in their equations. They can strategically move and manipulate factors in their problems, and adjust their expectations to the results, and then rework the same equation from various points to find out precisely why their results didn't meet their expectations, and how it might be possible another way. A mathematician can see in their mind's eye exactly how the objects represented by their variables interact as they solve the equation.
Is mathematics NOT creative?

A painter can be sat in an empty room given the primary colors along with black and white, various brushes and pallet, and create a truly awful painting of a vase and flowers on the canvas.
Place a vase and flowers before them, however, and their keen observations allow them to recreate the image exactly in remarkable detail, even embellishing and tweaking colors and shadows some to perfect the image, and balance it perfectly in the confines of the frame.
Is this, "artist, creative?

If we challenge the definitions of creativity and art we've had shoved down our throats in the same formative years you've been malingering over, we realize that there is immense creativity in things we thought were mere mundanity.
Anyone who can LIE to you is capable of writing a good story. They tell them all the time, why not write it?
Anyone who can write by hand can learn to draw a picture of what's before them.
A physicist can create sculpture with mixed metals and high explosives.

I will accept that some of us have greater innate talents in some areas of creativity than others, but to say creativity can't be learned is to ignore the connections between the seemingly mundane things like reading and writing- the conversion of emotions to complex concepts, to audible symbols, then to visual symbols, then back again- and the things we stereotypically consider creativity.

They say the separation between man and animal is that man uses tools. Then of course there's someone who points to a chimp fishing termites out of hill with a stick saying, "but isn't that a tool?"
The real separation is that man can imagine a tool they want, realize they don't have a tool to build it, then make a tool to make the tool to make the tool they wanted. Is that not creative?
The single greatest ability of humanity is its creativity. The least among us has more creative potential than most creative of animals, and is able to to learn to apply it in some fashion.

Next time you watch someone bust out a complex equation, don't say to yourself, "I'm not smart enough to do that." Say to yourself, "I'm not creative enough to do that," and see how it feels.

 

[sorce]

I believe this talk of having the right pot is useful to the "creatively challenged".

Post in thread 'CodeMonkeys Cork bark elm #1' https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/codemonkeys-cork-bark-elm-1.52819/post-913665

Nice tree too.

Sorce

 

[HorseloverFat]

Artistic Non-Jealous : “I don’t know HOW i did it.. It just happened!”

Artistic Jealous : “I was gifted from above.. the earth is my muse.. what I do, cannot be taught.”

Non-Artistic Non-Jealous : “Wow! That’s a gift! I can’t create like that, could you help?”

Non-Artistic Jealous : “Screw you! I can do that.. just WATCH! I’ll just bone up on my Bob Ross...”

A SIMPLER TAKE.

2 of these 4 people are Misled .. but the problem isn’t the Art.

 

[Katie0317]

Shadystump, I agree that math is a fascinating art but it's not a visual art...They're very different things. It's interesting though that a lot of creatives I know have a 'glitch' that allows them to perform well mathematically, musically or in some unrelated field. It's kind of fascinating how often I've run across that.

Horseloverfat, Most creatives I know are quiet, unassuming people...The word jealous is the last word that comes to mind. Remember in the 'real' world creative people are the odd person out. They tend to put themselves together in an individualistic way and march to the tune of their own drummer so to speak.

As I shared, I believe everyone can be encouraged to grow and find their own creative voice. I'd recommend people search for a teacher, mentor. or books to help you on the journey.

Bonsai should be fun and challenges are to be overcome and help you on your next project. Don't assume creative people don't have roadblocks. I have to draw everything I'm trying to learn regarding horticulture and have an image to look at so it makes sense to me. Other people can read the same material and 'get it'.

We all have strengths and weaknesses. If you feel you need help with creative issues try to find a teacher, books, or an avenue that works for you. Personally, I'd suggest starting with writing and drawing and work on expressing yourself. That's what it means to be creative...Expressing yourself. It's not all peaches and cream...lots of your expressions may be about what you find frustrating or mad or sad. Write it down. Try drawing your trees. Nobody but you will see and if you're patient you'll see progress. Work in pencil and if you like it draw over it with a sharpie. Put the date on everything you do so you'll see your own progress. Give it a try, you have nothing to lose.

 

[HorseloverFat]

Horseloverfat, Most creatives I know are quiet, unassuming people...The word jealous is the last word that comes to mind. Remember in the 'real' world creative people are the odd person out. They tend to put themselves together in an individualistic way and march to the tune of their own drummer so to speak.

You know very little about me, clearly.

But your points are sound, reasoning is solid, and you present it in a very diplomatic way. I like your words.

 

[HorseloverFat]

I believe that everyone can harbor creative thoughts.. the process is much like meditation.. you have to DO it, to be good at it.

The problem MAY lie in expression.. ability to properly CONVEY these artistic thoughts.

I’ve worked in a couple mixed-media galleries.. as well as toured ‘round the Midwest in a travellin band.... “Creatives” come in ALL types, sizes, shapes, and colors.... they are JUST as subject to social symptoms, like jealousy, as anyone else....

Just ask yourself..

Is Axl Rose creative?

 

[Dogestoevsky]

I’m new to bonsai, but I’m a career artist and drawing instructor. I have so much to learn in terms of horticulture and bonsai technique, but in general good design sense is highly transferable. While it may seem like some individuals are naturally gifted with a singular artistic vision, it’s a learned skill like anything else. Mostly it involves observation, consuming other good art, learning how to learn from your moments of inspiration or insight, and a deep desire to make a thing over and over and over.

It’s that last one — the desire — that you can’t fake. For some it happens early, others in middle age, or even as a second act. But in my experience great ceramicists make great painters make great poets make great gardeners etc.

cheers!

 

[HorseloverFat]

I’m new to bonsai, but I’m a career artist and drawing instructor. I have so much to learn in terms of horticulture and bonsai technique, but in general good design sense is highly transferable. While it may seem like some individuals are naturally gifted with a singular artistic vision, it’s a learned skill like anything else. Mostly it involves observation, consuming other good art, learning how to learn from your moments of inspiration or insight, and a deep desire to make a thing over and over and over.

It’s that last one — the desire — that you can’t fake. For some it happens early, others in middle age, or even as a second act. But in my experience great ceramicists make great painters make great poets make great gardeners etc.

cheers!

Excellent screen-name!

And valuable input!

Thanks!

 

[Katie0317]

I mentioned writing and drawing. Google illustrated journaling and you'll find it interesting and often very beautifully done.

Consider devoting an illustrated journal to your bonsai trees and use it to document your progress.

You'll get better at drawing and have fun doing it.

 

[leatherback]

Being creative is a skill. Skills can be learned. Can everybody become so skilled that the world is in awe? No, of course not. But.. Most people forget the amount of work goes into becoming excellent at something. Very few have the luck of things coming to them without effort. With effort, everyone is creative. "I cannot do that" is seen as a stopping point. To me, it is a challenge. If you take "what you cannot do" and use it as a challenge, you will sit and try and learn. And in time you realize, Hey, I can do this.

 

[clem]

I’m new to bonsai, but I’m a career artist and drawing instructor. I have so much to learn in terms of horticulture and bonsai technique, but in general good design sense is highly transferable. While it may seem like some individuals are naturally gifted with a singular artistic vision, it’s a learned skill like anything else. Mostly it involves observation, consuming other good art, learning how to learn from your moments of inspiration or insight, and a deep desire to make a thing over and over and over.

It’s that last one — the desire — that you can’t fake. For some it happens early, others in middle age, or even as a second act. But in my experience great ceramicists make great painters make great poets make great gardeners etc.

cheers!

Would you say, as an artist and instructor, that anybody -who really wants- can reach the level of the Master (teacher) ? I mean, when Leonardo DeVinci was a young student, he made a 3/4 portrait that was so great (unique, & different), that his master (teacher) said Leonardo was already a far better artist than him. I think you can progress greatly by aquiring technics (with the desire as you say) but i don't think anybody can copy a DaVinci painting so perfectly that the experts can't make the difference ? What do you think ?

 

[Potawatomi13]

Agreed. Not possessing esthetic, imaginative appreciation of tree beauty in nature and specifically nearly guaranteed to stifle creation of good tree with "heart". Disagree strongly that one with no artistic(left/right)side brain function can "learn" this ability that must be FELT.

 

[sorce]

Disagree strongly that one with no artistic(left/right)side brain function can "learn" this ability that must be FELT.

This is always something that comes up for me, the idea that it must be felt, which as I understand it, is this "gut feeling", which there is a scientific brain to belly connection for.

I believe this, "trust your gut" can be excersized, which I believe is essentially "learning" the ability.

Unfortunately I think the problem then lies with trusting oneself.
I don't think many trust themselves because in order to really do so, you have to excersize NEVER DOING THE WRONG THING. Which is difficult but required to trust yourself.

The fight inside the brain of the dishonest must be crippling.

Sorce

 

[Bnana]

Disagree strongly that one with no artistic(left/right)side brain function can "learn" this ability that must be FELT.

Everyone has artistic/esthetic functions, so this is a moot statement.
I'm sure everyone can learn this, to a certain level.

 

[berzerkules]

I feel there are varying levels or artistic ability that are not tied to the technical ability of creating.

Like, I've been drawing celtic knots for about 20+ years and I think I'm actually good at that specific craft but I am by no means good at drawing. I can not draw a good still life, a landscape or people with realistic proportions. I don't have the natural ability to see something and draw it, I could get better, if I dedicated myself but, I would not be satisfied with the results. My artistic and technical ability are matched when it comes to drawing knots but all out of whack drawing almost anything else. With knotwork I don't know where it comes from, I don't start with a plan, I start on a grid and put pencil to paper. i know basic shapes/patterns and just puzzle them together until a larger pattern emerges and I find something I find aesthetically pleasing. Then, I can go back and check if it is technically correct with no closed patterns and proper interlacing. From there it's problem solving time correcting mistakes. It's like I'm taking my logical thought process and applying it to art.

I also played guitar and bass for many years, I got to a point where I plateaued, I was not physically able to play at the level I wanted and could not keep up with my peers. I couldn't play what I heard in my head. It's incredibly frustrating to have an artistic vision that you can not execute. I was better than a lot of people I knew but, the people I played with just had more natural talent than I had. I stopped playing as much as I had previously and eventually I stopped playing when I injured my hand working as a driller. I feel I was a better musician artistically than I was technically.

I think I have an opportunity here with bonsai. I don't know the last time I wasn't caring for some sort of plant. I remember when I was living with my grandparents in Phoenix when I was about 3-5 and we were just spittin watermelon seeds on the lawn. They sprouted before my grandpa mowed and I noticed them, I got him to mow around them until we scooped them up and moved them to a flower bed my grandma had. I was eating terrible watermelons I grew as a little kid. I've been helping my family with plants and garden stuff since then. First thing I did when I moved out of my parents house was buy an ivy and some palm tree things for my efficiency. I had that ivy for almost 15 years and the palm things died that winter. I've kept plants ever since. I also consider myself an artist, I just don't know yet if my artistic vision/ability and my ability to preform the technical aspects of bonsai will align cohesively. I also have to deal with an inhospitable environment that isn't conducive to established bonsai practices.

I don't know if any of that makes sense, conveying my thoughts through written word has never been my forte. I think faster than I can talk, I talk faster than I can write, when I write I'm already 10 steps ahead of myself by the time I get a sentence out.

And I'm sorry for that wall of text, I guess that was a lot of words to say that you can work at developing your artistic skills but to truly excel it takes a natural vision to begin with then a physical capability to preform the technical aspect as well. Some people just don't have rhythm and will never be great dancers no matter how hard they try, other people feel the beat but don't explore that aspect of themselves while others are just born to dance.