The Double Colander ------ is this it's use.

[dirk hoorelbeke]

The right combo will do the trick. Train in container / airpot / pondbasket /colander first until there is a reasonable rootsystem. Placing them IN THE GROUND for one (for small) or two years (for bigger) will exponentially increase the growth rate. Then you start over in a container for 2 years to correct the roots early on. .

Forgot to state "pace them in the ground (or in raised bed if you wish)" after establishing the rootbase.

 

[sorce]

Just pointing out.....

We have stated facts of different soils in different areas......

And here we have Tropical Climates arguing with Snow Climates.

Is it not enough to know that in the tropics.....they can lift these in months from the ground....and still have months to grow them that season.

We agree that tops grow different in these places....
Repotting times are differnet....

But for some reason....we lost this knowledge when it comes to roots?

Sorce

 

[Vance Wood]

@johng ?

@Steve C ?

I almost have to call Bullshit on this one Vance....

And if it were that easy......

Sorce

You are not thinking: If I plant an Oak in to a small pot I can keep it in that small pot for years if I treat the roots and refresh the soil. If I leave it in the pot it will stay in that pot for years without growing larger till it dies but it wont get bigger. It is possible it could stay there for years and remain very small if it could find ways to continue to survive. What do you think allows Yamadori to survive very small in size for hundreds of years? Take those same trees and put them in good ground and watch what happens.

 

[Vance Wood]

"plants in Florida" and the playing of the location card.... are you trying to tell us trees in the ground do not grow faster than in pots where you live? I have a funny feeling this is not the case?

No; I am not telling you that, but they do grow differently and the difference can be favorable. The trunks will continue to thicken, some say they wont and they are wrong, and the bark they produce is far more attractive than bark produce on trees in the ground for the same number of years in comparison.

However; here is a point. If you have ever seen a Ponderosa Pine in Yosemite Valley, the bark on one of those giants is beautiful and distinctive, almost like a checker board. I have never seen a collected or pot grown Pondy with this kind of bark. Conclusion: In order for a Pondy to acquire this kind of bark the tree has to be mature and free growing.

If you grow a tree in the ground the trunk will thicken but the bark will remain featureless compared to the same species of tree grown in a Bonsai Training Planter, colander, or pond basket. The bark in these trees tend to adhere and stack up instead of flacking off in much the same way a pine sheds older needles. Anyone who has payed attention to the developing bark on younger Pines will notice how easily it is damaged and flakes off.

 

[sorce]

No way I go against your tree knowledge.

But fish....

My guy at the pet store, I used to go everyday on breaks....3 times....kind of lived there.....

He always asked me if I waould like to live in a closet....
They even labeled fish "dwarf", but they were not dwarf....

Just fish.....

I seen a Giant Gourami grown to almost as tall as it tank. And thick like....(_____).

Anywho....

I believe the tree half!

Sorce

 

[Adair M]

Hmm and it here it comes, start the arguments, forget the discussion and no one leans anything.

Potawatonmi 13,

actually, the Bonsai Today articles I mentioned are excellent to test your growing technique against theirs.

So when the Author drifted into Akadama, we continued on with our mix, but kept the time reference he
used for the thickening of his J.B.pine trunks.
Additionally, in the J.B.pine article no.12 after all his illustrations on trunk thickening, he left the last
page for his - more graceful - attempts at growing the J.B.pine.

We stayed with the idea of the - more graceful - since our inspiration comes from trees in nature -- not convention.
Note we use a thick lowest branch, 3/4 of the trunk , convention uses a thinnner lowest branch.

We also added on the use of cuttings [ through AusBonsai ] and we don't buy trees, just grow them from seed or
cuttings. We also do air layers. You learn a great deal more.

Thus far the use of compost, allows us to bypass the oil seed practice and we can make use of 1/3 strength fertiliser
into moist soil.
This year we are testing compost tea on the oldest trees. We also have expendable older trees, since over the years
there have been many experiments.
Most of the information on Bonsai is written for zone 7 and Ling Nan [ clip and grow ] in it's Cantonese form
will produce, weird Chinese Ink Painting, calligraphic trees meant to be seen against a wall in a room.
We use more of the European Sculpture in the round.
_________________________________________________________________

Stacy --- MOST HUMBLE APOLOGIES !! trying to handle too much at one time.
_________________________________________________________________

Dirk - THANK YOU y!!!! saved me a lot of writing on the enlarged root bit.

Namaste Tutti
Good Day
Anthony

Re: your comments on "convention". Bonsai styling is an art. I believe the art is portraying an "idealized" tree, not a purely "natural" one. Others may see it differently.

But, your comment about the first branch being 3/4 of trunk size... Part of the art of bonsai is "fool the eye". We're trying to make small trees look as if they are much bigger. Proportion, and use of scale, and perspective are our tools to accomplish this.

Why do we style our tree to "lean forward" towards the viewer? It is often said that the tree should "bow" towards the viewer. But why? Trees don't bow. Trees in nature don't lean towards the viewer.

It's done because it foreshortens the image. Makes the tree look shorter. So a trunk that is, for example, 16 inches long, might appear to be only 12 inches tall. Because it's moving forward towards our eye. And we "expect" the tree to be growing straight up, not towards us, so we "see it" growing straight up! It tricks our perception to make a larger tree appear smaller.

Using thinner branches rather than thicker branches does the same thing. Yes, the lower branches should be thicker than the upper branches. But, using slim branches on a thick trunk makes the trunk look fatter, whereas using thick branches on a thick trunk makes the trunk look thinner. This can be overdone, of course.

So, while many try to go against "convention" and go their own way, there are reasons for the conventions.

If the tree were "natural", it would be full size, not miniaturized.

 

[Vance Wood]

Yeah the old saying that tropical fish size is related to tank size is a popular saying, but it is actually nothing more than an old wives tale. A fishes size is determined by it's species, genes, and it's food intake. I've had numerous fish out grow their tanks due to growth/size. The only time you can have fish size limited is in a natural pond where the numbers of fish in it limit the availability of food then some fish will be stunted as the genes get passed down, but that does not happen in the aquarium hobby.

Steve: Do you grow tropical fish?

 

[Vance Wood]

Re: your comments on "convention". Bonsai styling is an art. I believe the art is portraying an "idealized" tree, not a purely "natural" one. Others may see it differently.

But, your comment about the first branch being 3/4 of trunk size... Part of the art of bonsai is "fool the eye". We're trying to make small trees look as if they are much bigger. Proportion, and use of scale, and perspective are our tools to accomplish this.

Why do we style our tree to "lean forward" towards the viewer? It is often said that the tree should "bow" towards the viewer. But why? Trees don't bow. Trees in nature don't lean towards the viewer.

It's done because it foreshortens the image. Makes the tree look shorter. So a trunk that is, for example, 16 inches long, might appear to be only 12 inches tall. Because it's moving forward towards our eye. And we "expect" the tree to be growing straight up, not towards us, so we "see it" growing straight up! It tricks our perception to make a larger tree appear smaller.

Using thinner branches rather than thicker branches does the same thing. Yes, the lower branches should be thicker than the upper branches. But, using slim branches on a thick trunk makes the trunk look fatter, whereas using thick branches on a thick trunk makes the trunk look thinner. This can be overdone, of course.

So, while many try to go against "convention" and go their own way, there are reasons for the conventions.

If the tree were "natural", it would be full size, not miniaturized.

Adair: I have a question for you, knowing the length and quality of your training. There are a couple of points in traditional bonsai knowledge or practice that I have questions about: I have seen judges critique a tree and criticize a tree because the trunk does not bow forward. So are we making a judgement because of "Rules" or because it actually makes a tree look better? Here is another: The ubiquitous Pigeons brest. What is the definition of a pigeon brest and if this formation occurs frequently in nature why is so vilified?

 

[Steve C]

Steve: Do you grow tropical fish?

Hi Vance, yep I've been an active member of the MI Cichlid association for a number of years now and have numerous tanks of fish. I enjoy and raise mainly cichlids but I also do have some other non cichlids like the fancier L# plecos as well as cory catfish. I do a little tank raised breeding with them as well. There's some guys in the club that are in it mainly for the breeding, I'm in it mainly for my display tanks but I do grow out some fry when my fish have them if it is fry from a quality fish and not a hybrid between two species of my fish I keep that I do not want to cross bred. Growing out two batches for Venustus at the moment, one batch are 6 months old and the other is only about 4 days old.

 

[Vance Wood]

I was into them a number of years ago but have since lost interest; focusing most of my attention on my bonsai. Most of the books I read said that the size a fish could attain was influenced by the size of the tank the fish was confined in. I understand genetics and all of that, but you are telling me that is not true?

 

[Steve C]

There are some books that will say that, mainly outdated ones though because its not true at all. It's one of the big misconceptions in fish keeping. That's one of the reasons places such as Florida have been having such big problems with invasive Plecosomus in their public waters so much over the past decade. People go to a chain store like Petco and buy a 2" pleco for their 10-55g tank not realizing that a common pleco can reach 30" or more in length then when the fish gets too big for the tank they release it into a local body of water. That's how the problems with snakeheads started as well some years back.

 

[Adair M]

Good questions, Vance.

Forward lean: the only style that should have no forward lean is Formal Upright. (As a general rule. Some of those collected yamadori "break" so many rules, the "rules" don't apply!)

Why would a tree get demerits for no forward ( or even backward) lean? Because it would be "better" if it did!

I don't want to repeat all the info I put in my previous post, it's all there. About how it foreshortens the tree. And how it allows the artist to work with a longer trunk, that APPEARS to be short. With the top moving forward, it's possible (due to the foreshortening effect) to have a trunk with evenly spaced internodes to appear as if the internodes are getting tighter up higher. Also, having more trunk allows you to have more branches. In an apparent small distance. Forward lean also aids the perception of depth. Or, really, I should say that the depth provided by the forward lean enhances the foreshortening effect on our vision.

Did you look at Sawgrass's thread on perspective? Using forward lean to advantage enhances the effects he describes. The eye tends to want to focus, and since the apex is closer to us than the base, the eye has to change focus as it moves up and down. The affects the way we perceive the tree.

Whew! That was a lot, huh?

Pigeon breast: the trunk moves foward and then back low on the tree. Because things close to our eye look bigger than things farther away, a pigeon breast can make it look like reverse taper, even though it's not! It also breaks the "fool the eye" aspect of foreshortening. (Because the eye changes its focusing in and out and in as it moves up the tree. A tree without a pigeon breast starts with distance focus and it moves to near focus as the eye moves up the trunk. )

I don't know what part of that explanation comes from my training, or my observations of bonsai over the past 40 years. Lol!

One final note: when viewed from the front, the Bonsai should not appear to be leaning forward. That can happen, and it makes it look like we are looking down on the tree rather than looking at or "into" the tree. If done correctly, the forward lean should only be apparent when seen from the sides and back.

Here's my JBP from the front:



It doesn't appear to lean forward, does it?

Now here's a view from the side:



Definately moves forward. The apex is just a little forward of the nebari.

As a "rule of thumb", the lip of the pot is about as forward as you want to go. Any more forward than that, then the tree is too much "in your face". And the foreshortening effect is lost.

As in most things bonsai, subtle is better than brash.

I am in no means an expert in this. I am learning the nuances of refinement as I continue my practice of bonsai. I am happy to share what little I know.

 

[Anthony]

Sifu,

once again thank you for responding.

I guess we like in Art, respond to the three basic forms of Art, Idealism, Naturalism and Mannerism.
Japan seems to be going through Mannerism.
What we use is Naturalism for the base going to Idealism.
It is natural for my brother-in-law, because he is an Imaginative multi-figurative painter [ title given by folk on your side - he just
calls himself an Imaginative painter ], but it first requires studying reality. X number of drawn trees.

I cannot respond on the - fool the eye bit - as we have never exhibited, save for down here. So folk down here are
more familiar with our local trees and our efforts, but they are not experienced eyes.

Beautiful tree, and thanks a million for the side view, explains a great deal.
Maybe one day your child-like students will make you proud.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[milehigh_7]

Yeah the old saying that tropical fish size is related to tank size is a popular saying, but it is actually nothing more than an old wives tale. A fishes size is determined by it's species, genes, and it's food intake. I've had numerous fish out grow their tanks due to growth/size. The only time you can have fish size limited is in a natural pond where the numbers of fish in it limit the availability of food then some fish will be stunted as the genes get passed down, but that does not happen in the aquarium hobby.

PSSST... It's available oxygen... small tank or lots of fish == smaller fish. Mind you there are some fish that can get a portion of their air from the surface so they are not as impacted by dissolved O2 in the water.

Same with trees... screen side pots allow for more oxygen and nutrient exchange across the roots (which are finer hair roots due to the air pruning) because it allows for more frequent watering.

BTW: it is always important to give credit where it's due. Vance does not blow his own horn but he invented the screen side pot technology and is a patent holder so it behooves us to listen to him on this topic.

The problem with not putting them in the ground seeing you are trying to grow the out, is that you will be sitting with your trees 10 years from now sitting in a colander, wondering why they still are pretty much the same size. But, they will have nice roots as previously mentioned. So, I suggest flipping a coin! Do you want nice roots or a trunk of any size? You don't get both, either way you have to sacrifice something...

I think Stacy is correct here... ground > screen pots > regular pots for putting on wood. screen pots > ground > regular pots for root development.

 

[Adair M]

Sifu,

once again thank you for responding.

I guess we like in Art, respond to the three basic forms of Art, Idealism, Naturalism and Mannerism.
Japan seems to be going through Mannerism.
What we use is Naturalism for the base going to Idealism.
It is natural for my brother-in-law, because he is an Imaginative multi-figurative painter [ title given by folk on your side - he just
calls himself an Imaginative painter ], but it first requires studying reality. X number of drawn trees.

I cannot respond on the - fool the eye bit - as we have never exhibited, save for down here. So folk down here are
more familiar with our local trees and our efforts, but they are not experienced eyes.

Beautiful tree, and thanks a million for the side view, explains a great deal.
Maybe one day your child-like students will make you proud.
Good Day
Anthony

The other side:



And the back:

 

[Vance Wood]

Great tree. Thanks for the explanations. You are right about the lean. But I have seen trees judged badly for not having it.

 

[Adair M]

I have another tree that illustrates the forward lean



It's about 16 inches tall. It looks pretty much like a Formal Upright, doesn't it? It does have a little wiggle in the upper 1/3 that's hidden by the foliage.

But it has a considerable forward lean. Sorry, I don't have a picture taken from the side. I bought this tree a year ago from someone in the BIB club who hadn't worked it in several years. It's coming along, now.

Is it a Formal Upright? Don't know... It might depend on who you ask.

I'll take some side pictures next week. It might get repotted, too. Maybe not. That guy wire on the left is pulling down pretty forcefully, and the wire is secured to the bottom of the pot. The wire is anchored to a heavy wire running across a drain hole. There's no way I could put that much pressure on a freshly potted tree using that technique.

 

[Adair M]

Great tree. Thanks for the explanations. You are right about the lean. But I have seen trees judged badly for not having it.

And they should lean.

The worst scenario is an apex that moves back, away from the viewer. It happens all too frequently. Some people train all their trees with it.

Brother Paul, the famous Monk from the Monastary in Conyers, Ga, styled his trees with the apex moving back. I still see trees with it here. There were a lot of people trained or influenced by him. Brother Paul is credited with making Kingsville boxwoods popular as bonsai.

Back in the day, I bought two bonsai from the Monastary. One, a triple trunk Japanese maple, and the other a Kingsville. Both had the apexes in the back. I lost the maple in the tornado that hit my parents house while I was at college in 1974.

The Kingsville bored me, so I sold it.

 

[Steve C]

PSSST... It's available oxygen... small tank or lots of fish == smaller fish. Mind you there are some fish that can get a portion of their air from the surface so they are not as impacted by dissolved O2 in the water.

Sorry but that is simply not true at all milehigh. I don't want to sidetrack this topic and turn it into a fish keeping discussion though. All fish need O2 obviously, but that has zero to do with growth rates in an aquarium.

 

[0soyoung]

With the top moving forward, it's possible (due to the foreshortening effect) to have a trunk with evenly spaced internodes to appear as if the internodes are getting tighter up higher. Also, having more trunk allows you to have more branches. In an apparent small distance. Forward lean also aids the perception of depth. Or, really, I should say that the depth provided by the forward lean enhances the foreshortening effect on our vision.

When someone is frightened by me, they recoil away from me. A trunk that leans away feels the same to me.
A trunk that leans forward feels friendly to me. Branch 1 and branch 2 are like open arms.

It communicates emotionally.