The "So?" response to bonsai rules.

[FreshAirSunshine]

Out of curiosity I’d love to see some of your trees and maybe a comment or two about “against the rule” choices you’ve made in developing it (maybe before and after if it involves branch selection or something). I have one or two “proper” prebonsai that might be fairly straightforward to follow rules with but a lot of random collected and nursery stuff that might be more interesting with some broken rules. My general guideline is design rules are optional (if you understand the “why” behind them and keep it in mind) but health rules often are not.

 

[Joe Dupre']

My thought is that the rules came AFTER the art. Picture the first Chinese person bringing home a beautiful specimen from the mountains. He puts in a pot that is suitable to his eye. He sees a branch or two that doesn't meet his approval and prunes them off. He turns the tree around until he gets a view that gives him the feeling he is after............ a hint of the beauty of nature in a pot. Now, someone comes along and starts picking the design apart to capture the "formula" that was used to make this beautiful object. Well, a "formula" is not what was used. I've had a dozen hobbies over the years. In all of them, I've noticed there are "number and rule" people and "feel"people. Number people NEED near exact measurements and formulas. Feel people just need a concept to do what they do. "Hey, why did you prune that branch off?" "Because I felt it didn't belong there." " But, WHY?" "I d'know...... it just didn't belong there."

Go ask Willie Nelson or any other prolific songwriter how he writes a song. My bet is he can't tell you. I've seen these people say that it just came to them, or they picked out 5 seconds of a guitar riff and just built on that. No formula........just artistic talent. Creativity is a hard concept to pin down. People have different ways of dealing with the world ...........one is not better or worse than the other.............just different.

 

[MeDupree]

The whole bonsai is art/not art is another discussion (can of worms) that has resulted in pages of debate here and elsewhere.

There are basic rules made by humans that speak to basic bonsai structure to give guidance, particularly to people newer to the hobby and learning tree development.

It is generally understood that the rules may not apply in all situations and many experienced bonsai practitioners and masters routinely go against said rules if the situation warrants. The key is knowing when that is.

Some people abhor the very thought of rules and seem to liken them to being forced into handcuffs. They make way too much of a big deal out of it.

As I said they are guidelines meant to help people learn how to develop good looking trees in general terms and may not apply in all or even most situations. Nature isn't so organized that trees always grow "to the rules".

I'm in this to learn and enjoy stuff so the fundamentals are definitely important in my journey and want to remain in a place where I can always consider guidance from someone in the community without being offended by critique.

My previous post was a little rushed and could've been thought out more and expressed differently.

 

[Joe Dupre']

Out of curiosity I’d love to see some of your trees and maybe a comment or two about “against the rule” choices you’ve made in developing it (maybe before and after if it involves branch selection or something). I have one or two “proper” prebonsai that might be fairly straightforward to follow rules with but a lot of random collected and nursery stuff that might be more interesting with some broken rules. My general guideline is design rules are optional (if you understand the “why” behind them and keep it in mind) but health rules often are not.

Well, it might be hard for me because I don't make "against the rule" choices. I design a tree that I like to look at. I look at what the tree wants to give me and work with that to make the best tree I can. Some choices I make just happen to align with the rules. Many of the rules are just natural preferences humans have about proportion and scale. Google the "Fibonacci Ratio". Fascinating facts about what humans find attractive.

 

[BrightsideB]

@Joe Dupre' just do you. I don’t follow all the rules or whatever in ceramics. I do know what I need for a durable pot though. And that matters a lot just like the health of a tree. Willie Nelson still uses key signatures and adheres to a lot of music theory whether he knows it or not. Jamming and learning from others means you are learning what people like as well as yourself. If he was always hitting flat notes off time his music wouldn’t be pleasing to most people so he creates music people like because he learned what people like.

 

[HorseloverFat]

The "Rules" are just Japanese adaptations of Chinese Penjing'...

Hotwired with the golden spiral rules of physical beauty..

SOMETIMES they are useful...

SOMETIMES they are a map to your own trails.

"....SOOOOO?..." -INDEED.

 

[dbonsaiw]

Go ask Willie Nelson or any other prolific songwriter how he writes a song. My bet is he can't tell you.

HIs response is obviously "weed", but music is a good analogy. There are notes that naturally sound good together. They may arrange themselves into scales. Combinations of notes may evoke a sad or happy feeling, blues or an Asian feel. Some are able to hear these things intuitively. Most others need to be taught these "rules". The fact that there are rules doesn't take away from the creative possibilities. One can pretend they are Jimi Hendrix, but most of us don't have that innate talent and have to try to first play his riffs before we can hope to create our own. Otherwise, we will be making nothing but noise. The more one challenges the "rules" the higher degree of skill that will be required. Personally, I am a big fan of Primus because they pull off not following rules well - Les Claypool's grindy voice and that alternative style could easily go awry in much less skilled hands.

 

[bwaynef]

I recently came across this quote: "Tactics flow from a superior position" -Bobby Fischer. Another that pairs well with it is "When you see a good move, look for a better one." Both pertain specifically to chess.

I'm no chess wiz and I'm not entirely sure where I came across that first quote recently. Tactics in chess are where large, match-altering moves are made. BF is saying that the way to get TO being able to make winning moves is to set yourself up by being in position to make those moves. The way you do that is by following a few mostly-truisms. They're not exactly rules, but they're guides that've been proven over time to yield the strongest positions. Strong positions and a keen eye lead to tactics that provide even stronger positions.

 

[Joe Dupre']

I suspect if you truly were guided by this "so?" sentiment you would never bother to make a public statement about it....you wouldn't care... Feels like you are making excuses for subpar trees

I care about what people think about my bonsai, I just don't let it steer the decisions I make on my trees. Rules for a creative endeavor seems like an oxymoron to me. Creating something has an air of uniqueness in my mind. If you are trying to make something according to what has existed before, you are not doing art...........you are doing something else. Not right or wrong ......just different. Sub-par trees?? Not by my standard. Sub-par by somebody else's standards? I'll have to go with "So?" again.

 

[bonsaichile]

I care about what people think about my bonsai, I just don't let it steer the decisions I make on my trees. Rules for a creative endeavor seems like an oxymoron to me. Creating something has an air of uniqueness in my mind. If you are trying to make something according to what has existed before, you are not doing art...........you are doing something else. Not right or wrong ......just different. Sub-par trees?? Not by my standard. Sub-par by somebody else's standards? I'll have to go with "So?" again.

This is a very juvenile understanding of what art is. Rules are like grammar and vocabulary in a language: They are what allow one piece to be intelligible to others, so they can understand what you are trying to communicate. They are not there to restrict you nor to limit your creativity. On the contrary, they are there to allow you to express yourself more efficiently. Or to put it in a different way: Uniqueness and originality can only happen PRECISELY because there are rules.

 

[rockm]

My thought is that the rules came AFTER the art. Picture the first Chinese person bringing home a beautiful specimen from the mountains. He puts in a pot that is suitable to his eye. He sees a branch or two that doesn't meet his approval and prunes them off. He turns the tree around until he gets a view that gives him the feeling he is after............ a hint of the beauty of nature in a pot. Now, someone comes along and starts picking the design apart to capture the "formula" that was used to make this beautiful object. Well, a "formula" is not what was used. I've had a dozen hobbies over the years. In all of them, I've noticed there are "number and rule" people and "feel"people. Number people NEED near exact measurements and formulas. Feel people just need a concept to do what they do. "Hey, why did you prune that branch off?" "Because I felt it didn't belong there." " But, WHY?" "I d'know...... it just didn't belong there."

Go ask Willie Nelson or any other prolific songwriter how he writes a song. My bet is he can't tell you. I've seen these people say that it just came to them, or they picked out 5 seconds of a guitar riff and just built on that. No formula........just artistic talent. Creativity is a hard concept to pin down. People have different ways of dealing with the world ...........one is not better or worse than the other.............just different.

Your examples don't really discount rules. The person designing a collected pine from the mountain is using his visual "rules" to do so. In creating "rules," Those collectors simply recorded what they were looking at and why it appealed to them. BTW, no one really wrote any of this down. It was accumulated knowledge of what works effectively.

FWIW Willie Nelson (God and Texas love him), is a natural musician. I have a friend who is one of those people who can sit down at a piano or pick up a guitar and play instinctively and very very well. It's an astounding talent, but there are folks without that innate ability that can become equally good with the right instructions and understanding the rules of music.

Willie plays most anything and is proficient in a number of musical genres from country, jazz, blues, folk, rock and Latin styles. I was listening to him when he wore a button down shirt and tie and had short hair in the 60's. I Was a teenager when he helped create outlaw. HOWEVER, ALL those styles involve "rules" of music--which is about as "rules oriented" as you can get. Music is fueled by mathematics. People pick up on that, and use it (Bach for instance) Mathematical progressions in chords, scales, intervals, patterns, tone and pitch are all "rules" musicians play by. Just because some innately understands those rules doesn't make them unnecessary. They come with the territory. Where others may need to refer to sheet music, some musicians play by ear. Doesn't change the rules of the notes they're playing. They can riff on some things, improvise, but such efforts still have to hang together with the basics. They know how to put all those pieces and rules together innately, in some cases. In some cases, they're learned. Both paths can lead to good musicians, or to really bad musicians. Bad musicians come in both categories.

With bonsai, some people have better sense for where things need to go in a design. Others need a path to follow. and BTW, some folks who think they have that innate design sense often really don't and their trees show it. Also BTW, THERE IS NO SHAME in using a template to create a decent bonsai. Assuming those that leverage rules are somehow lesser than someone who bitches about them is not only silly, it's not true. I think Americans get REALLY caught up in the "I am wild and free and nothing can constrain me," "if you don't do it yourself it's not authentic," way of looking at things.

All that is simply not true and a bit blind. The "I do it MY way. I do it MYSELF because I'm special and have innate artistic talent" attitude has held American bonsai back for years. It was looked down on for decades if you "bought" a tree--in any stage (and still is by some who don't know what they're talking about) instead of making one from scratch...That lead to a LOT of self-created crap and mediocre trees. Still does...

 

[Katie0317]

This reminds me of the man in the museum looking at a Picasso painting and says "My two year could have done that."

I got a degree in Fine Art, taught in several colleges and worked commercially as well. The fundamentals of design aren't based on opinion but on fact. Many of the greatest artists broke the rules but in most cases they understood the rules first. Appreciating fine art, be it Picasso or many others is generally based on understanding. The more a person understands something the more likely they are to appreciate it. They may not like it but they appreciate it.

The more a person studies any medium, Bonsai for instance, the broader their taste and appreciation is likely to be. A person who has no interest in who, what or how great artists achieved exceptional work is less likely to create great work themselves. There are exceptions but they're few and far between.

In the end the work speaks for itself. No words are necessary, just show your work. Your bonsai will speak for itself.

 

[ZombieNick]

I have found more people that proclaim to "break the rules" than those that proclaim there are "rules you MUST follow".

 

[Wulfskaar]

The only rules I care about are the ones that keep me from killing my trees and the ones that help me reach my vision.

 

[Cajunrider]

I don’t feel the need to ask @Joe Dupre' to post his work and prove anything to me. You do you Joe.

 

[Joe Dupre']

This is a very juvenile understanding of what art is. Rules are like grammar and vocabulary in a language: They are what allow one piece to be intelligible to others, so they can understand what you are trying to communicate. They are not there to restrict you nor to limit your creativity. On the contrary, they are there to allow you to express yourself more efficiently. Or to put it in a different way: Uniqueness and originality can only happen PRECISELY because there are rules.

So?

 

[Joe Dupre']

Your examples don't really discount rules. The person designing a collected pine from the mountain is using his visual "rules" to do so. In creating "rules," Those collectors simply recorded what they were looking at and why it appealed to them. BTW, no one really wrote any of this down. It was accumulated knowledge of what works effectively.

FWIW Willie Nelson (God and Texas love him), is a natural musician. I have a friend who is one of those people who can sit down at a piano or pick up a guitar and play instinctively and very very well. It's an astounding talent, but there are folks without that innate ability that can become equally good with the right instructions and understanding the rules of music.

Willie plays most anything and is proficient in a number of musical genres from country, jazz, blues, folk, rock and Latin styles. I was listening to him when he wore a button down shirt and tie and had short hair in the 60's. I Was a teenager when he helped create outlaw. HOWEVER, ALL those styles involve "rules" of music--which is about as "rules oriented" as you can get. Music is fueled by mathematics. People pick up on that, and use it (Bach for instance) Mathematical progressions in chords, scales, intervals, patterns, tone and pitch are all "rules" musicians play by. Just because some innately understands those rules doesn't make them unnecessary. They come with the territory. Where others may need to refer to sheet music, some musicians play by ear. Doesn't change the rules of the notes they're playing. They can riff on some things, improvise, but such efforts still have to hang together with the basics. They know how to put all those pieces and rules together innately, in some cases. In some cases, they're learned. Both paths can lead to good musicians, or to really bad musicians. Bad musicians come in both categories.

With bonsai, some people have better sense for where things need to go in a design. Others need a path to follow. and BTW, some folks who think they have that innate design sense often really don't and their trees show it. Also BTW, THERE IS NO SHAME in using a template to create a decent bonsai. Assuming those that leverage rules are somehow lesser than someone who bitches about them is not only silly, it's not true. I think Americans get REALLY caught up in the "I am wild and free and nothing can constrain me," "if you don't do it yourself it's not authentic," way of looking at things.

All that is simply not true and a bit blind. The "I do it MY way. I do it MYSELF because I'm special and have innate artistic talent" attitude has held American bonsai back for years. It was looked down on for decades if you "bought" a tree--in any stage (and still is by some who don't know what they're talking about) instead of making one from scratch...That lead to a LOT of self-created crap and mediocre trees. Still does...

So?

 

[Joe Dupre']

This reminds me of the man in the museum looking at a Picasso painting and says "My two year could have done that."

I got a degree in Fine Art, taught in several colleges and worked commercially as well. The fundamentals of design aren't based on opinion but on fact. Many of the greatest artists broke the rules but in most cases they understood the rules first. Appreciating fine art, be it Picasso or many others is generally based on understanding. The more a person understands something the more likely they are to appreciate it. They may not like it but they appreciate it.

The more a person studies any medium, Bonsai for instance, the broader their taste and appreciation is likely to be. A person who has no interest in who, what or how great artists achieved exceptional work is less likely to create great work themselves. There are exceptions but they're few and far between.

In the end the work speaks for itself. No words are necessary, just show your work. Your bonsai will speak for itself.

So?

 

[leatherback]

So.. When is a plant in a pot a bonsai and not a shrub?

 

[badatusernames]

So?

So Willie Nelson learned rules (like the rule of what strings to put your fingers on to make a C chord) before being able to intuitively create music

Every great surreal / abstract / modern / whatever artist learned perspective first

It doesn’t really matter, but yeah, your examples are of rule followers. I don’t think I know any greats who didn’t start with the rules. Maybe Werner Herzog because of his upbringing?

Do whatever you want, it’s just not some badge of honor the way you think it is to not care. Doesn’t mean you can’t have fun!