misfit11
Omono
This is very true, Dario. The difference between terrible material and a great bonsai can be about 20 years (or more...). It just depends on whether or not someone wants to devote that much time developing terrible material.
Think you need a teacher?
- Thread starter Smoke
- Start date
This is very true, Dario. The difference between terrible material and a great bonsai can be about 20 years (or more...). It just depends on whether or not someone wants to devote that much time developing terrible material.
drew33998
Masterpiece
I have always wondered why you would bring a piece of material to be styled by a bonsai master/teacher and then claim ownership to it. In my opinion you didn't have anything to do with the creation of the bonsai. You basically own a tree that was created by someone else. Bonsai to me is trying to acquire the skills and knowledge to "be" the master or teacher and create great trees. That said I am a long way from being even close to a novice. My two cents worth.
Poink88
Imperial Masterpiece
The bonsai and YOU are separate. Do not confuse or equate the two. What goes and happens to the bonsai it reflects (poor or good workmanship).
You on the other hand can learn a lot from the process (if you did it yourself or even just watching it done by others). As I said, I even learn just looking at pictures sometimes.
Poink88
Imperial Masterpiece
Right. People who buy excellent yamadori (usually very expensive) or top notch materials are in a way buying time.
PaulH
Omono
This thread seems to have split into two different questions and I have opinions on both.
Original topic: teachers.
When I began bonsai I struggled on my own and killed trees for a year or so. Then I joined the local club and began to learn. I learned a lot, but, much of what I heard were club members opinions and everyone had one and many conflicted. I found this interesting but confusing for a person trying to learn. So, I joined another local club which had a permanent club sensei. Every meeting we could bring a tree for input and instruction on how to improve the tree. Most of what I learned from this great man is the same being taught today by Japan trained teachers. After a few years I thought I was pretty good at this stuff and worked on my trees by myself. Then, some years ago I started to participate in a study group with a well known teacher known for his artistic vision of bonsai and learned much about improving my eye for bonsai ( and got some really nice sketches of some of my trees).
Then, a few years ago, our study group started workshops with a newly returned teacher who had just returned from his apprenticeship in Japan. Wow! I still had many of the basics I had learned years ago, but, this teacher is fond of the expression that we should take our bonsai to the next level. That is just what he did. I've learned easily as much from him as I had learned from other sources over the last thirty years. Trees that I thought were pretty nice are exponentially better now.
Second topic: material.
I agree that every tree has potential. But it is not always good potential. The old expression "Garbage in - Garbage out" holds very true with bonsai. I wasted a lot of years fiddling with trees that could never be great. Those have been sold long ago. Good material doesn't have to be expensive, I just needs to be good. I think learning to spot material with positive potential may be one of the most difficult things to learn in our quest for "the next level". A good bonsai instructor will be willing to tell his students of a tree is a waste of time and effort.
Your friends and club members will often tell you every tree is fantastic....
Paul
Original topic: teachers.
When I began bonsai I struggled on my own and killed trees for a year or so. Then I joined the local club and began to learn. I learned a lot, but, much of what I heard were club members opinions and everyone had one and many conflicted. I found this interesting but confusing for a person trying to learn. So, I joined another local club which had a permanent club sensei. Every meeting we could bring a tree for input and instruction on how to improve the tree. Most of what I learned from this great man is the same being taught today by Japan trained teachers. After a few years I thought I was pretty good at this stuff and worked on my trees by myself. Then, some years ago I started to participate in a study group with a well known teacher known for his artistic vision of bonsai and learned much about improving my eye for bonsai ( and got some really nice sketches of some of my trees).
Then, a few years ago, our study group started workshops with a newly returned teacher who had just returned from his apprenticeship in Japan. Wow! I still had many of the basics I had learned years ago, but, this teacher is fond of the expression that we should take our bonsai to the next level. That is just what he did. I've learned easily as much from him as I had learned from other sources over the last thirty years. Trees that I thought were pretty nice are exponentially better now.
Second topic: material.
I agree that every tree has potential. But it is not always good potential. The old expression "Garbage in - Garbage out" holds very true with bonsai. I wasted a lot of years fiddling with trees that could never be great. Those have been sold long ago. Good material doesn't have to be expensive, I just needs to be good. I think learning to spot material with positive potential may be one of the most difficult things to learn in our quest for "the next level". A good bonsai instructor will be willing to tell his students of a tree is a waste of time and effort.
Your friends and club members will often tell you every tree is fantastic....
Paul
I agree with Paul on this topic.
Workshops are fine, but the time you spend with the teacher is limited, and you only work on what you bring. You might also see what can be done with the stuff others bring in.
I have begun going to a bonsai master's garden for lessons, and seeing his trees up close. And working on them. It's the closest thing possible to apprenticing in Japan w/o having to use my passport. I've learned immensely more by working on world class bonsai than I would ever have by just working on my trees. None of my trees are refined to the extent his are, but now that I can see trees that are at the "next level", my trees are improving immensely.
The apprentices that are going to Japan are learning at gardens where the trees have been kept in pots for hundreds of years. These trees have been styled by many people over the years. This whole concept of "it's not my tree if I didn't style it" is simply an immature concept. If a tree is great, it's great. It doesn't matter if you styled it. Bonsai is a living art. No tree is static, they require maintenance, renewal, and refinement.
We Americans seem to think that bonsai trees are supposed to be kept "show ready" at all times. That's not the way they do it in Japan. Sometimes a tree might get too rammified to be sustainable. Or, to look good in the show, they pot it in a very small pot. Too small for long term health. The Japanese masters will determine several years in advance what tree they want to show several years from that point in time, and they will plan out what they want to do to get it "show ready" in several years. After the show, they may cut it back severely, or put back into a training pot, or let the needles grow long on a pine to let it restore.
You can't learn this stuff at a workshop, or studying on your own. You have to be there, do that. Experience it.
That is what the new breed of bonsai masters are bringing back from Japan today.
Workshops are fine, but the time you spend with the teacher is limited, and you only work on what you bring. You might also see what can be done with the stuff others bring in.
I have begun going to a bonsai master's garden for lessons, and seeing his trees up close. And working on them. It's the closest thing possible to apprenticing in Japan w/o having to use my passport. I've learned immensely more by working on world class bonsai than I would ever have by just working on my trees. None of my trees are refined to the extent his are, but now that I can see trees that are at the "next level", my trees are improving immensely.
The apprentices that are going to Japan are learning at gardens where the trees have been kept in pots for hundreds of years. These trees have been styled by many people over the years. This whole concept of "it's not my tree if I didn't style it" is simply an immature concept. If a tree is great, it's great. It doesn't matter if you styled it. Bonsai is a living art. No tree is static, they require maintenance, renewal, and refinement.
We Americans seem to think that bonsai trees are supposed to be kept "show ready" at all times. That's not the way they do it in Japan. Sometimes a tree might get too rammified to be sustainable. Or, to look good in the show, they pot it in a very small pot. Too small for long term health. The Japanese masters will determine several years in advance what tree they want to show several years from that point in time, and they will plan out what they want to do to get it "show ready" in several years. After the show, they may cut it back severely, or put back into a training pot, or let the needles grow long on a pine to let it restore.
You can't learn this stuff at a workshop, or studying on your own. You have to be there, do that. Experience it.
That is what the new breed of bonsai masters are bringing back from Japan today.
chris38383838
Sapling
Maybe I can clarify a bit on what I meant when I said ''material with potential''. English is not my first language and sometimes my choice of words may not be right. I apologize for that.
First part is exactly what PaulH said:
Sometimes some trees have major defaults in them that can't be arranged by pruning, wiring, grafting and even time. The kind of tree that will never become a good bonsaï. I think one needs a good dose of humility to acknowledge that kind of thing.
Second part is about species. Some species of trees just do not have good qualities for bonsai. The best example I can think of is the canadian maples. They can have a pencil size trunk and put up some leaves that have the size of my hand. No matter how long you work with that maple, how much you ramify the branches, it will never reduce its foliage size. So unless you encounter someone that has done some seed selection on, lets say, acer rubrum to develop a particular cultivar that has small leaves, you might never come across a good canadian maple bonsai. That's why I think that some species should be avoided when it comes to developing superior quality bonsai, but it is my personal opinion, and I still have much to learn!
@gergwebber, don't worry! No offense taken!
Chris
First part is exactly what PaulH said:
Sometimes some trees have major defaults in them that can't be arranged by pruning, wiring, grafting and even time. The kind of tree that will never become a good bonsaï. I think one needs a good dose of humility to acknowledge that kind of thing.
Second part is about species. Some species of trees just do not have good qualities for bonsai. The best example I can think of is the canadian maples. They can have a pencil size trunk and put up some leaves that have the size of my hand. No matter how long you work with that maple, how much you ramify the branches, it will never reduce its foliage size. So unless you encounter someone that has done some seed selection on, lets say, acer rubrum to develop a particular cultivar that has small leaves, you might never come across a good canadian maple bonsai. That's why I think that some species should be avoided when it comes to developing superior quality bonsai, but it is my personal opinion, and I still have much to learn!
@gergwebber, don't worry! No offense taken!
Chris
Poink88
Imperial Masterpiece
I guess I should have qualified my statement for all plants "with good bonsai traits".
I too believe some plants are more pain than they are worth to work on but maintain that any tree (with good bonsai traits), problematic or not has potential. That is why we chop, carve, re-grow, etc. Whether it is worth the effort or not is another question.
I too believe some plants are more pain than they are worth to work on but maintain that any tree (with good bonsai traits), problematic or not has potential. That is why we chop, carve, re-grow, etc. Whether it is worth the effort or not is another question.
Stan Kengai
Omono
Not all people are created equal. There are those who can learn a lot by observing and experimenting, and there are others who are incapable of learning the simplest concepts no matter how many times they are shown or told. The majority of people lie somewhere in between.
I think that almost every person can benefit from a teacher, with the biggest exception being close-minded people who think they already know everything. The most effective teacher would be one who could make the student think for themselves, explore concepts mentally, and foster inquisitiveness. The teacher need not have a greater skill level or better material than the student, though it can be helpful. But the teacher needs to approach bonsai in an intellectual way, themselves being inquisitive explorers.
As far as material goes, consider this: Would you take a high school physics book to Albert Einstein? A paint-by-numbers set to Leonardo da Vinci ? Lincoln-logs to Frank Lloyd Wright? Sure, you could, and you'd probably learn something. But would you get the most out of your time with the masters?
I think that almost every person can benefit from a teacher, with the biggest exception being close-minded people who think they already know everything. The most effective teacher would be one who could make the student think for themselves, explore concepts mentally, and foster inquisitiveness. The teacher need not have a greater skill level or better material than the student, though it can be helpful. But the teacher needs to approach bonsai in an intellectual way, themselves being inquisitive explorers.
As far as material goes, consider this: Would you take a high school physics book to Albert Einstein? A paint-by-numbers set to Leonardo da Vinci ? Lincoln-logs to Frank Lloyd Wright? Sure, you could, and you'd probably learn something. But would you get the most out of your time with the masters?
While the new breed of masters are in their own right good it is still the same old style.
Find a tree that looks like a triangle not in nature but yet the Japanese are still locked in too this type of plant.
Personally I want my bonsai to look like trees.
tmmason10
Omono
I personally do think I needed a teacher. I obviously read a lot, looked at a lot of pictures, and scoured all over the Internet, but the only real way for me to improve was to get some hands on teaching. Being in class and being able to ask all the questions I could think of has really improved my technique and vision from where I was. My school will be done after this year and then I think I'll have a good enough foundation to join a study group and really start improving on my own.
jk_lewis
Masterpiece
I'd suggest that you will end up knowing more abut bonsai if you do NOT concentrate on one teacher, but sample many of them. With just one, there's too much likelihood that you end up making copycat trees.
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I think there are two main aspects of bonsai - the horticultural side of keeping your trees alive and happy, and the artistic side.
Books and the internet are fine, especially on the horticultural side. I think, however, that the artistic side is a bit more difficult as it is hard to see what makes good bonsai from a 2D image. I would say that being around good trees is the best way to grow in the artistic side. A teacher can help in that regard by showing you in person what makes a good tree and what doesn't. Being around good trees helped to teach me how important depth and front-back movement was - you really don't appreciate that by looking at 2D images.
There is also the technical side of bonsai, which probably straddles both the horticultural and artistic side. A teacher is very helpful to grow in that area and get up the learning curve quicker - I learned an amazing amount from taking workshops with folks like Ryan Neil and Boon, much more than I would have ever learned just from books and the internet. Sure, I might be able to become pretty good at wiring a tree if I had 1,000 trees to practice on, but it's a lot more efficient in time and money to have a teacher help you along.
Books and the internet are fine, especially on the horticultural side. I think, however, that the artistic side is a bit more difficult as it is hard to see what makes good bonsai from a 2D image. I would say that being around good trees is the best way to grow in the artistic side. A teacher can help in that regard by showing you in person what makes a good tree and what doesn't. Being around good trees helped to teach me how important depth and front-back movement was - you really don't appreciate that by looking at 2D images.
There is also the technical side of bonsai, which probably straddles both the horticultural and artistic side. A teacher is very helpful to grow in that area and get up the learning curve quicker - I learned an amazing amount from taking workshops with folks like Ryan Neil and Boon, much more than I would have ever learned just from books and the internet. Sure, I might be able to become pretty good at wiring a tree if I had 1,000 trees to practice on, but it's a lot more efficient in time and money to have a teacher help you along.
Poink88
Imperial Masterpiece
Nicely put. Thanks!!!
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
The need for a teacher is determined by the needs of the student and that student's awareness of that need. In the beginning everyone could benefit from a teacher, that almost goes without saying. As the student progresses and skills improve then issues of self esteem can take over and the student gets to a point where they think they know it all. It is only when they get to a point where they realistically realize that they are going no where that they may seek out a teacher, or they will spend the rest of their endeavors doing the same thing the same way over and over, puzzling as to why they are not improving.
berobinson82
Omono
What good is a Ferrari to a person that has not been taught how to operate a manual transmission? Early instruction, no matter what the venture, will benefit a practitioner in their craft if they've been fortunate enough to sync up with a good instructor. What's the point of spending a grand on a tree if you've no idea how it got to that point?
Like some others here, I'd rather have the technical skills in place before I start spending big bucks on materials. I understand taking expensive starting materials to workshops. Sounds to me like spending extra money to get the most out of the lesson, though.
In conclusion; yes, I do think teachers are valuable. An uneducated artist has no business with fantastic starter material because they won't know how to care for and work on it.
Like some others here, I'd rather have the technical skills in place before I start spending big bucks on materials. I understand taking expensive starting materials to workshops. Sounds to me like spending extra money to get the most out of the lesson, though.
In conclusion; yes, I do think teachers are valuable. An uneducated artist has no business with fantastic starter material because they won't know how to care for and work on it.
lordy
Omono
That's kind of like saying you could buy a dremel for carving IF you have the money, or just use a rusty nail. If you work with the nail long enough you can possibly get the carving to come out well. But with the dremel you will get it done a heckuvalot sooner, and probably better.Right. People who buy excellent yamadori (usually very expensive) or top notch materials are in a way buying time.
Sometimes cutting off a branch or root that is ill-positioned will always show a scar. If you had your choice, you logically would opt for the material that had all the right parts in the right places, even though you could work with something less, you would undoubtedly end up with something less. IMHO it is not simply a matter of time, but also of results.
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Ron Dennis
Shohin
Good thread with many good points
Many good points have been made here. Why would we consider bonsai to be different from any other endeavor we may take on? If, as many are, a complete novice at anything, you study in an effort to learn the subject. Part of that study can be a "teacher". How we utilize the teacher is totally up to us.
As we progress, assuming we do, we can either choose to continue to grow or not. My observation has been the good become really good by realizing they do not know it all and continuing to learn.
gergwebber asked, "but can anyone tell me what the rules are for trees with potential? I would hate to spend any of more time in my trees to find out none of them have any potential. But I hear these types of phrases and sometimes wonder: are there really trees with no potential? It would be nice to have some basic guide-lines to follow on this as I think I may have to fire up the composter and thin out my forrest a bit.
This question is one I have asked also and have never had a really understandable answer. It would seem if you ask 5 different people this question you get 5 different answers.
One thing received from group workshops with a teacher that I think has not been mentioned is interacting with other people with similar interest and the friendships made.
I suppose my answer, Smoke, is I think I need "teaching" by those knowing so much more than I do and guidance in selecting the right material. Heavens knows I have spent the money to obtain the right material and it has not been totally successful in this area.
Many good points have been made here. Why would we consider bonsai to be different from any other endeavor we may take on? If, as many are, a complete novice at anything, you study in an effort to learn the subject. Part of that study can be a "teacher". How we utilize the teacher is totally up to us.
As we progress, assuming we do, we can either choose to continue to grow or not. My observation has been the good become really good by realizing they do not know it all and continuing to learn.
gergwebber asked, "but can anyone tell me what the rules are for trees with potential? I would hate to spend any of more time in my trees to find out none of them have any potential. But I hear these types of phrases and sometimes wonder: are there really trees with no potential? It would be nice to have some basic guide-lines to follow on this as I think I may have to fire up the composter and thin out my forrest a bit.
This question is one I have asked also and have never had a really understandable answer. It would seem if you ask 5 different people this question you get 5 different answers.
One thing received from group workshops with a teacher that I think has not been mentioned is interacting with other people with similar interest and the friendships made.
I suppose my answer, Smoke, is I think I need "teaching" by those knowing so much more than I do and guidance in selecting the right material. Heavens knows I have spent the money to obtain the right material and it has not been totally successful in this area.
Poink88
Imperial Masterpiece
Bonsai potential is like beauty, it is in the eye of the beholder.
Our personal preferences, exposure, and training may help us see (or not see) the potential. Having other set(s) of eyes (or a good teacher) may help find it.
Some are limited by what they see first hand...usually it involves removing, re-shaping, or adding branches. Some artists are like chess grandmasters who can foresee the next 12 moves and all possible permutations...while we (mere mortals
) can only see one or 2.I stick to my original answer, it is there, sometimes we just can't see it...or just need time (could be decades) for it to be fully realized.
I think it depends entirely on the goals of the student.
If the student is dead set on doing bonsai their own way... they probably won't listen to a teacher anyway. Though they will have to learn the basics somewhere, whether on line, in books or the school of hard knocks (which could take a very...very long time..lol).
If the student is hungry to learn... they can and probably will learn from anyone.
If the student is passionate about becoming the best they can be... they will learn from any source, but then they will probably seek higher level training from professionals. If they don't do so right away, they likely wll eventually.
Most students probably have at least some combination of these goals.
The same can translate to the type of stock. A student who has this passion will learn quickly what stock will make better bonsai and they will take this type of material to the teacher.
-- Similarly, an intelligen teacher will be able to tell which students are passionate about learning everything they can and which students are not as dedicated. The smart teacher will probably teach accordingly.
I believe passion can be an almost instantaneous thing, or it can grow over a period of time. (I wanted to learn guitar when I was younger, but I didn't get very far until the desire to learn started getting stronger than my other interests. Bonsai on the other hand feels like it was almost an instant passion.)
Another question is... Is the students goal to learn the horticulture, craft or art?...or all of the above?
If the student is dead set on doing bonsai their own way... they probably won't listen to a teacher anyway. Though they will have to learn the basics somewhere, whether on line, in books or the school of hard knocks (which could take a very...very long time..lol).
If the student is hungry to learn... they can and probably will learn from anyone.
If the student is passionate about becoming the best they can be... they will learn from any source, but then they will probably seek higher level training from professionals. If they don't do so right away, they likely wll eventually.
Most students probably have at least some combination of these goals.
The same can translate to the type of stock. A student who has this passion will learn quickly what stock will make better bonsai and they will take this type of material to the teacher.
-- Similarly, an intelligen teacher will be able to tell which students are passionate about learning everything they can and which students are not as dedicated. The smart teacher will probably teach accordingly.
I believe passion can be an almost instantaneous thing, or it can grow over a period of time. (I wanted to learn guitar when I was younger, but I didn't get very far until the desire to learn started getting stronger than my other interests. Bonsai on the other hand feels like it was almost an instant passion.)
Another question is... Is the students goal to learn the horticulture, craft or art?...or all of the above?
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