Think you need a teacher?

[Dav4]

I've been into the hobby for 16 years. Early on, I didn't want to or couldn't spend much money on bonsai related things, so I did what every newbie does...buy a bunch of dated bonsai books from European authors and spend Saturday mornings conducting landscape nursery crawls. I did acquire about a dozen Bonsai Today mags...they were my first "teacher". I spent hours re-reading the articles and staring at the trees in the gallery, memorizing them. Studying those pics at least gave me an idea of the classic bonsai asthetic...it allowed me to know what a good bonsai looked like. This is how I spent the first 3-4 years.

Now, here's where things started to change for me. I actually had a couple extra bucks in my pocket...not alot but enough to make me dangerous. I actually got a subscription to Bonsai Today...the articles were ok but the trees in the galleries continued to thrill me and inspired me, as well. I also discovered internet bonsai forums, specifically Bonsaitalk. Suddenly, my exposure to everything bonsai had tripled; threads on soil formulations(100% inorganic?? ...really???), styling and pruning techniques (explained in english)...and more great eye candy when experienced folks posted pictures of their trees. I still hadn't been to a single workshop, but I was learning alot, slowly but surely.

It was at this point that I started buying stock worth acquiring. Don't get me wrong, I still did the nursery crawls (I love a bargain), but I was beginning to see that really good stock was worth getting, even if it was a stretch financially ($400-$500 was a stretch then and still is today) I can tell you that there is NOTHING out there that will inspire you more, teach you more, and get you more excited about the hobby, then a REALLY good piece of stock....hands down. You'll want to be careful, you'll take your time, you'll research everything there is to know concerning your tree and what you're doing to it, be it wiring, re-potting, fertilizing, etc. You'll take your time, but you WILL work on it, and you will be better for it in the end. You will eventually get more stock with as much or more potential, and your skills and your satisfaction in this hobby will grow as your collection grows.

At this point, I've been to many workshops and demos. I've been a part of a study group with a travelling professional, and I'm currently part of a study group led by Rodney Clemmons. Has my periodic associations with teachers been a benefit? Absolutely, and most often with styling questions.....but.....committing myself to acquiring better stock to work with, stock with real potential, stock that stretched my imagination........allowed me to teach myself more then any person I've listened to or worked with, whether we're talking techniques, styling, pruning, etc.


This is by far and away the longest post I have every authored here or elsewhere...I apolagize

 

[Poink88]

This is by far and away the longest post I have every authored here or elsewhere...I apolagize

Don't apologize. It is a good read w/ great points. I think you should do it more often actually.

 

[october]

Wiring can difficult to initially learn from books.. Well, let me rephrase that.. good wiring.. It can become confusing if you are new to it. The whole wiring along with the direction you are bending, wiring under and over etc...You can read and read. However, in 60 seconds, a good teacher can say this is what they mean and "bang". It all starts to make sense.

Rob

 

[buddhamonk]

Been doing bonsai for 14 years now and I have found that there are some things in Bonsai you can't learn on your own. I thought I knew how to wire and style for the first 10 years until I started going to a study group with Joe Harris. In that respect I believe having a teacher is necessary. I'm currently looking for private lessons on grafting, I read a lot about it, watched countless videos, purchased everything you could possibly need, but I feel I need supervised hands on practice because I don't want to ruin expensive material (collected ponderosa/RMJ). Could I bring cheap material to the lesson? sure why not, I would likely learn just as much.

That's my 2 cents...

 

[berobinson82]

Wiring can difficult to initially learn from books.. Well, let me rephrase that.. good wiring.. It can become confusing if you are new to it. The whole wiring along with the direction you are bending, wiring under and over etc...You can read and read. However, in 60 seconds, a good teacher can say this is what they mean and "bang". Tt all strats to make sense.

Rob

That's exactly how I felt about wiring! Seeing it done correctly, in person, by a professional in this case, was a great example and lesson.

 

[Poink88]

Could I bring cheap material to the lesson? sure why not, I would likely learn just as much.

I think there is a big difference between a grafting class vs a styling workshop in terms of what material you should bring. I would bring something cheap/dispensable tree as well to learn new skills...esp if the practice/exercise may damage the tree. JMHO.

 

[GrimLore]

There are Several people here I would love to perhaps and meet and in person see in person how they do certain things but I do not want to get myself in a "classroom" setting where the Instructor is the "law". I would prefer a Interest Group or Club as not to get caught up in "cookie cutter" techniques where all things tend to be the same.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

There are Several people here I would love to perhaps and meet and in person see in person how they do certain things but I do not want to get myself in a "classroom" setting where the Instructor is the "law". I would prefer a Interest Group or Club as not to get caught up in "cookie cutter" techniques where all things tend to be the same.

I wouldn't dismiss the Instructor is the "law" format so quickly, if you haven't tried it:

1. Bonsai is passed along through apprenticeships studying under a sensai, or master for a reason. You can learn 10 ways to properly apply a technique from 10 people. Cherry-picking from here and there will cause unpredictable results...too many cooks spoil the soup...

2. Nearly everyone who mentioned workshops stated they learned a lot. From my experience, a 1-day workshop is exponentially more valuable than a year of independent study. I can only imagine the benefits of a full-immersion apprenticeship, intensive series, or whatever long-term, repeating sessions. If you're serious, I cannot think of a better investment of time and money.

3. If you're an experienced practitioner, how much do you learn at club meetings? I try, it's not much anymore. Often times it feels like a magician's conference and everyone has a hat and rabbit. It's really not a great learning environment, especially when those most willing to teach are often the least qualified, and it's worse when they've been around forever but quit studying in 1982.

4. Look at the other side. If you're experienced, a great way to continue learning is to begin teaching. If you take a student or two under your wing, how effective would you be if you show them a technique that works for you, and they tell you about 3 other ways they've read to do it?

 

[buddhamonk]

There are Several people here I would love to perhaps and meet and in person see in person how they do certain things but I do not want to get myself in a "classroom" setting where the Instructor is the "law". I would prefer a Interest Group or Club as not to get caught up in "cookie cutter" techniques where all things tend to be the same.

I'd much rather get paid knowledge from a professional than free knowledge from a interest group / members. After doing bonsai for a while, I don't have much to learn from amateurs...

I guess it really depends on how far along in Bonsai one is. Beginners with beginner trees wouldn't learn much a professional teacher...

 

[october]

I wouldn't dismiss the Instructor is the "law" format so quickly, if you haven't tried it:

1. Bonsai is passed along through apprenticeships studying under a sensai, or master for a reason. You can learn 10 ways to properly apply a technique from 10 people. Cherry-picking from here and there will cause unpredictable results...too many cooks spoil the soup...

2. Nearly everyone who mentioned workshops stated they learned a lot. From my experience, a 1-day workshop is exponentially more valuable than a year of independent study. I can only imagine the benefits of a full-immersion apprenticeship, intensive series, or whatever long-term, repeating sessions. If you're serious, I cannot think of a better investment of time and money.

3. If you're an experienced practitioner, how much do you learn at club meetings? I try, it's not much anymore. Often times it feels like a magician's conference and everyone has a hat and rabbit. It's really not a great learning environment, especially when those most willing to teach are often the least qualified, and it's worse when they've been around forever but quit studying in 1982.

4. Look at the other side. If you're experienced, a great way to continue learning is to begin teaching. If you take a student or two under your wing, how effective would you be if you show them a technique that works for you, and they tell you about 3 other ways they've read to do it?

Hi Brian... I agree with you on all points. Something I have been noticing, there seems to be a growing adversity to many of the interior workings of bonsai. such as how it is learned. A 1 day workshop can excel someones progress like you would not believe. Here is a perfect example.... Many years ago, I was at my first bonsai teachers nursery. As we talked, he brought me to an area of trees that where done in his 2 day intensive workshop. He picked up a tree and told me that the woman who had created this bonsai, never did bonsai prior to this workshop. I was just astounded. If I remember correctly. It looked like someone with at least 5years experience had worked on this tree.

Also, the internet seems to be pretty hostile sometimes. There are arguments, disagreements and sometimes just general disrespective behavior. I have never wintnessed this behavior in any workshop, demonstration, class or session i have been involved in. Whether I was assisting the teacher, a by stander or teaching. Actually, the classes, no matter in what capacity you are there, are always fun.

Rob

 

[GrimLore]

"You're traveling through another dimension - a dimension not only of sight and sound but of mind. A journey into a wondrous land whose boundaries are that of imagination. That's a signpost up ahead: your next stop: the Twilight Zone!" - Rod Serling

 

[Dwight]

Seems like this thread is going all over the place.........

As a former professional teacher ( whatever that is ) it seems that the student is at least as important in the process of learning as the teacher. I taught chemistry for 36 years ( yes it's easier to master than bonsai ). Many of my stydents were forced to take my class so I'll ignore them. Of those who wanted to be in the class ( something I'd suppose to be true of bonsai students ) there were serious students who actually learned some chemistry and there were those who took chem because it was " cool ". Of the first group abouthalf actually got it. The rest just didn't have the nack ( net ionic equations are a bitch ). Of the second group less than a third got it. Takin' chem ain't " cool ".

I've never had a bonsai teacher unfortunately but I've been around a few who have and I seem to see the same sort of division with about the same results. I believe there is a certain amount of inborn talent that goes hand and hand with bonsai. Those who have it seem to do fine. Those without...........not so much. Kinda like Al said originally , the " throw money at it '" approach don't work with bonsai no matter what you try. Some folk seem too figure this out on their own pretty quick and stop spending on teachers and start spending on well done trees. Some just keep spending no matter what and still have junk trees but they " did then themselves ". Since it's only a hobby to almost all of us and it's only money no harm is done. The teacher makes money , the student is happy with his/her crap trees so no harm done. Well almost no harm unless we consider the talented teacher who is forced to spend time with hopeless students ( one of the most infurating experience you can imagine ).

Too bad the hopeless student who persists in using up the teachers time can't just donate the money to some youngun' who has the talent but not the money.

 

[october]

Seems like this thread is going all over the place.........

As a former professional teacher ( whatever that is ) it seems that the student is at least as important in the processof learning as the teacher. I taught chemistry for 36 years ( yes it'ss easier to master than bonsai ). Many of my stydents were forced to take my class so I'll ignore them. Of those who wanted to be in the class ( something I'd suppose to be true of bonsai students ) there were serious students who actually learned some chemistry and there were those who took chem because it was " cool ". Of the first group abouthalf actually got it. The rest just didn't have the nack ( net ionic equations are a bitch ). Of the second group less than a third got it. Takin' chem ain't " cool ".

I've never had a bonsai teacher unfortunately but I've been around a few who have and I seem to see the same sort of division with about the same results. I believe there is a certain amount of inborn talent that goes hand and hand with bonsai. Those who have it seem to do fine. Those without...........not so much. Kinda like Al said originally , the " throw money at it '" approach don't work with bonsai no matter what you try. Some folk seem too figure this out on their own pretty quick and stop spending on teachers and start spending on well done trees. Some just keep spending no matter what and still have junk trees but they " did then themselves ". Since it's only a hobby to almost all of us and it's only money no harm is done. The teacher makes money , the student is happy with his/her crap trees so no harm done. Well almost no harm unless we consider the talented teacher who is forced to spend time with hopeless students ( one of the most infurating experience you can imagine ).

Too bad the hopeless student who persists in using up the teachers time can't just donate the money to some youngun' who has the talent but not the money.

Exactly Dwight. This is why I posted this from my point of view..a personal fitness trainers point of view......

I have an example running parallel to this. I used to be a certified personal fitness trainer. People would come to me to get in very good physical shape. Most people would do 2 sessions of week. Sometimes it seemed like they would think that by spending 2 hours a week with a trainer. It was going to magically transform them into this lean, physically fit person. However, most would not do anything conducive to the fitness lifestyle outside the sessions. They would skip cardio for the week and not watch their diet. Yet, they would continue to come to me and struggle through the workouts. As a trainer, I would continuously stress that if they are ever going to get any benefit from these sessions, they would need to do things outside of the sessions. On one hand, I could not understand why, if you are paying the money to get healthy and in shape, why would you do nothing to achieve that. Ironically, enough, some did not even care. They knew they weren't progressing and they did not seem to care. In fact, I cared more about their results than they did. I think that might be the case in bonsai sometimes. People just don't care. They have an ok tree, one step above a stick in a pot and they are fine with that.

Just like being a trainer, I believe a bonsai teacher needs to be supportive, but also has to let the student know that it is important to pick out good material and study. The teacher should be nice, but make a strong point. The point being that unless you learn more and become able to pick out better material. Then your bonsai will not progress or excel. Spending a couple of hours every few months with a bonsai teacher and then doing nothing outside of that yields very little and very slow results. Just like the person that workouts with a trainer 2 hours a week, but eats whatever they want and slacks on the workouts when the trainer is not around.

rob

 

[GrimLore]

I was not making "light" of anything anyone has posted here. I was in a sense pointing out that I want my experience to be a happy and peaceful one without so many boundries. I guess I have a more "naturalistic" approach is all I can figure

 

[Smoke]

My point is that I see people, even in my own city, that spend thousands on teachers of very high skill levels and yet bring the same old tired material that they have worked on for decades expecting a miracle to happen with a good teacher.
It seems as though some can justify spending a thousand dollars a year or more on a teacher but would never spend a thousand dollars on a piece of material.

Is there an attitude that by spending huge sums of money on a teacher that you will magically ascertain the ability to continue with working with crappy cheap material and turn it into something special?

or....

is one spending the money on the education bringing crappy material to workshops and teaching environments knowing full well that after the education they will dump the crap and begin spending money on the material they should have bought in the first place?Does this sound familiar to anyone?

Ok....so I think this thread has went a little south, coming to terms on whether or not spending money on a teacher is worth it. Of course money spent on a teacher is worth it. A teacher in any field is worth it.

Let me come at this a different way so as to try and keep this more to the point. I see people spending great money on teachers yearly. Big names, like Ryan and Micheal, Boon, Kathy and soon Owen and Bjorn and whoever the next fresh face to come back from Japan. Peter?

Lets say it cost $1000.00 a year to have one of these people come to your home three times a year for the three days. Thats only $333.00 a day. Cheap!
Will you be willing to spend 1000.00 on material to have that guy work on? Would you be willing to spend on a continual basis the money necessary to keep yourself into the kind of material to make worthy the education you have spent so much money on?

Lets say you decide to do the Boon intensives. (I guess there is no way to disect this except to use names) The whole series is 9 three day courses. 27 days of work spread over 9 three day courses over three years. Each course is $575.00 times nine for $5175.00.

Believe it or not, there are people that will spend this type of money on schooling and never spend the money necessary to use it. Maybe there is no answer, cause I can't for the life of me figure out why a guy would go to a school and shoot 20 children.

boiled down....is the price of education worth the money when one can't afford to use it properly?

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Absolutely. Why must someone have to own the trees to have the skills?

 

[Adair M]

Al,

I understand what you are saying, completely.

I started Boon's Intensive series last fall, and have just returned from my second class.

I knew that once I went, I would never be satisfied with the material I used to work with. So, I purchased a $1500 tree to work on. It's not a finished tree, but it is advanced stock. It does have the potential to be the equal of trees that currently reside in Boon's garden. And, I feel confident that the knowledge I'm getting from Boon's teaching will assist me in getting the tree there in the shortest time possible.

 

[JudyB]

is the price of education worth the money when one can't afford to use it properly?

I think equally important is the question that if one does not invest in the education, when one has the material that will fail without that education...

 

[Vance Wood]

Here are a couple of things to consider, or at least give some thought. Most people won't take a workshop or a class unless they desire to learn something. This is the standard mantra but it is not always true. I have done workshops where there was a person or two who took the workshop or at least paid to monitor the workshop that were not there to learn, they were there to harass the teacher and challenge everything that was being taught. In brief they were there to demonstrate how much they knew not to learn anything at all.

Here is something some of you probably don't know. In 2000 we had Kimura as our guest master, that was MABA 2000. I was invited to lunch with the master, his translator and several other people from the organization. I had the chance to ask Mr. Kimura about how he got into bonsai. His mother forced him to go into a bonsai apprenticeship, he wanted to play Rock and Roll.

 

[buddhamonk]

Smoke,

Not sure if what you are describing is just a Californian thing because I haven't noticed this here. Those spending thousands in education typically have material just as expensive.

To me it is like buying an expensive tree and putting it in a cheap pot. One of my teacher used to say "If you use that pot on this tree, the tree will die of shame..."