Water hose filter help

Jason_mazzy

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Looking for filters for the gardens so when I hose water there is less contaminates. When I fertilze I usually use distilled in my watering can. But for regular watering I have gone hose because cost is too high. I fopund this filter http://www.amazon.com/Camco-40043-T...F8&qid=1366389432&sr=8-2&keywords=hose+filter

but it has KDF and I don't know how many gallons it is good for. KDF apears to be a high copper and zinc alloy so I'm thinking might not be good for all trees especially pines because copper (can) kills fungus and bacteria.

then there is this one http://www.amazon.com/Garden-Hose-F...F8&qid=1366389432&sr=8-1&keywords=hose+filter which is more than twice as expensive.

Anyy advice on filters would be greatly appreciated and if you have a different in line filter in mind let me know.

Thank you.
 

Martin Sweeney

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Jason,

Did you have your water tested? Is it well water or good ol' Catawba River water from the city? Is there a particular reason you do not want to use the tap water?

Regards,
Martin
 

Jason_mazzy

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yeah we have high chlorine and some other nasties. I use a house filter on all my water so i would rather use less of the toxic stuff. I found a generic all carbon filter I ordered a 4 pack of. We'll see how it goes. I think just removing some chlorine and pesticides and herbicide runoff couldnt hurt.
 

Martin Sweeney

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Jason,

Understood and applauded. Is it city water then?

Regards,
Martin
 

butlern

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Ressurecting this discussion...

Anyone have any experience with the Pentek big blue units for garden hoses?

https://www.purewaterproducts.com/products/gh400

We're moving soon, so we'll be transitioning from city water to well water that is LOADED with iron... like red water coming out of spigot. House is on iron exchange and softener. Exterior spigots come straight from pump house/well, of course.

Was also going to pick up one of these filters (and see how long until it exhausts its capacity)

https://www.purewaterproducts.com/products/fc410

Feedback appreciated!

Noah
 

Leo in N E Illinois

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@butlern
Iron is not a problem for the plants. They will love it, iron is a necessary nutrient. Iron will be unsightly, and a problem that will require regular cleaning of good pottery to prevent ugly iron stains on your show pottery. If you find iron build up is quick, less than a year on good ceramics. Find plastic pots the same interior size & shape as the interior of your good show pots. Then just before a show, you can ''slip pot'' your tree from the cheap pot to its clean, identically shaped show pot. Other than unsightly build ups on pots and increasing time and effort required to clean up good pottery, Iron is a non-issue for the health of the plants. Just water away with well water.

Chlorine is not that big a problem. It really does not hurt the plants if it is in concentrations low enough that it is considered safe for humans to drink. If you used to raise tropical fish, and still don't like chlorine because fish taught you that it was a problem, just have a bucket, or tank or whatever container around to let the chlorine gas off into the air for 24 to 48 hours. But seriously for all but the most delicate species of trees, this is not necessary. Heck, they grow in dirt, they can't be that fussy. (humor, this crack about growing in dirt was intended as humor).

Get your well water tested. For about $40 you can get the two tests that really matter. You want the value for Total Alkalinity which is usually written as mg Calcium Carbonate per liter of water. It can also be written as the rough equivalent as ppm Calcium Carbonate. The second test you want is Total dissolved solids. TDS. This is also milligrams per liter or parts per million. The two units are roughly equivalent. NOTE: pH is NOT the problem, pH is a distraction, and is an independent and largely meaningless measurement when it comes to plant health. If the pH of the water is safe enough for humans to drink it is safe enough for the plants. TOTAL ALKALINITY is a measure of the buffer capacity of the water. This is the critical measurement. If you can only get one measurement the Total Dissolved Solids is somewhat useful as an estimate of total alkalinity. For Illinois, Wisconsin, probably Iowa & Minnesota, the Total Alkalinity will be roughly 75% of the Total Dissolved Solids.

The big problem is the Calcium. It is a necessary nutrient, a macro-nutrient, not a micro-nutrient, but trees that prefer ''acid soils'' will not tolerate excess calcium. Here we are talking about carnivorous plants, Blueberries, azalea, Rhododendrons, to a lesser extent beech, hornbeams, maples and other ''forest edge and understory species''.

Plants secrete buffers from the tips of their roots and root hairs. These buffers will alter the pH of the water film around the root tip to the ideal range for the plant. A study by James Asher, UM, Ann Arbor, showed that the water film surround the root hairs of an orchid (Paph primulinum) measured in situ in Sumatra, the orchid was growing on bare limestone rock, with the roots in contact with the limestone. Rain water running over the limestone was about pH 7.6 or maybe even higher, slightly alkaline. The pH of the water film around the root tips was 5.6 or 5.8, mildly acidic. Later lab studies showed the orchid was actively excreting buffers to modify the pH of the water film around its roots. This is why pH is a trivial problem. The roots will correct the pH by excreting their own buffers. So pH is a trivial problem for plant health. This phenomena has been observer in other groups of plants, conventional wisdom is all plants will do this to some degree or other. The orchid example is one where I knew the principal investigator (J. Asher) and I actually took the time to read the paper. An example from other research would work as well. Most plants will buffer the root tip environment to somewhere between 5.5 and 6.8 pH. Regardless of the pH of the soil.

Now this active excretion of buffers to modify the root environment comes at a metabolic cost to the plant. As long as the amount of buffering required is within the plant's ability to keep up, there is no problem. When it comes to water Total Alkalinity is a measure of the amount of acid needed to neutralize a liter of water expressed as milligrams of calcium carbonate. (by writing it as milligrams calcium carbonate, the issue is not which acid you choose) So Total Alkalinity is a measure of how much acid (or plant excreted buffers) needed to bring the pH of the water film to a level acceptable by the plant. When the Total Alkalinity is high, the plant must excrete more buffers, when the Total Alkalinity is too high for that plant species, the plant won't be able to excrete enough buffers. The pH of the water film will not hit the ideal range for nutrient absorption, and the plant will become weak, show symptoms of nutrient deficiencies and then eventually die, most likely from an opportunistic disease taking advantage of the weakened plant.

So if your water you water your trees with is less than 50 mg/liter as calcium carbonate (roughly 67 ppm total dissolved solids, this is ''pure enough'' water to raise most of the common carnivorous plants. This is excellent water, except it is so low in Calcium and Magnesium you will need to supplement these two macro-nutrients.

Water greater than 50 mg/liter, less than 300 mg/liter as calcium carbonate. Roughly 67 ppm to 400 ppm total dissolved solids. This is water of ''medium hardness'' for horticultural purposes. Good enough for most trees. Azaleas and blueberries would appreciate a dose of rain water at least weekly to flush out some of the accumulating calcium. This will work for the vast majority of trees.

If your well water is over 400 ppm total dissolved solids, or over 300 mg per liter calcium carbonate Total Alkalinity, this would be considered ''hard water'' for horticultural purposes. I know municipal capacity wells in the LaCrosse Wisconsin area, just across the River from Iowa have wells that are producing water that is 1275 mg / liter calcium carbonate Total Alkalinity, with 25% of that alkalinity being magnesium carbonate. This is well water that is roughly 1400 ppm total dissolved solids (the 75% estimate breaks down in this example). These new municipal wells in LaCrosse, created a problem for a certain beer producer. Magnesium at that high a level can cause diarrhea in more sensitive humans. That beer manufacturer had to install reverse osmosis to get the magnesium levels down in its water, and monitor the levels of magnesium in the grains and hops they used to avoid keeping a bad reputation. (@Adair M the brewery was not the Shiner brewery)

Horticulturally what does greater than 400 ppm mean? Salt tolerant species like Japanese black pine and many junipers, especially shore junipers, will have no problem. Elms should have no problem. Pots will quickly need cleaning. Azalea, blueberry, beeches and hornbeams will always seem to die out on you. Maybe not right away, but in a few years. No amount of fiddling with pH will do anything to help the situation. Only active steps to lower the amount of calcium in the water will work. What solution you choose will depend on the size of your plant collection. The amount of money and time you have for initial set up capital, and your familiarity with technology to set up solutions.

Collect rain water - this is the lowest tech and least capital intensive method for solving a hard water problem. For myself, 10 cheap 3 gallon buckets, scattered around the back yard, these are emptied after every rain event into 2 55 gallon plastic drums. Each bucket might only collect a quarter inch of water, but it adds up. Usually if I start in March, by the beginning of June I have nearly 110 gallons of rain water. Rain is less frequent the rest of the summer, but I use rain water ever other watering for the whole summer. By September my rain barrels will be almost empty, and then our autumn rains set in. The harder your water the less frequently you want to use municipal water between uses of rain water. Remember, in a drought, using municipal or well water, even if it is very hard is better for your trees than dehydration.

There are many articles about plumbing your gutters to collections of 55 gallon drums, and or larger tanks or even underground cisterns if you really want to be elaborate. So saving rain water is a good way to solve the hard water issue.

Reverse Osmosis (RO). From under the sink models to models big enough to generate 1000 gallons a day, how big a system you want depends on how big a plant collection you have. It takes me about 25 gallons to water my bonsai. So a proper capacity reverse osmosis system will need to generate at least one gallon per hour. Reverse osmosis runs water through a semi-porous membrane, that allows water through but not larger ions like Calcium. Remember there is the set up cost, but also the membrane will only be good for a certain amount of time, then it will have to be replaced. Filters need to be installed to the incoming water feed, and the system will waste water, at peak efficiency roughly 2 to 3 gallons of water are sent ''down the drain'' for every gallon of finished, low calcium water. As the filter ages, more goes down the drain. If your well water has a high cost per gallon, the waste from RO is a problem.

Deionizing water - DI - this is where water is run through an ion exchange cartridge. The system is cheap to set up, but the cartridges are a recurring expense. At the lab we used DI- to make our distilled water for tests. Monthly we were replacing cartridges, at $50 each. A good system can give you analytically pure water, but it is expensive to maintain.

Cheap fix - air conditioners and de-humidifyers - If you only have a few plants, water collected from dripping air conditioners and the basement humidifiers is essentially pure water. Low solids. Maybe dust that had accumulated on the air conditioners coils. For a small collection, requiring only a few gallons of water this might be fine.

Purchase water - you can purchase distilled water, if you shop "water services", there are some that will deliver. $ 2 per gallon is what I remember from 10 years ago. Not cheap, but if you only need a gallon or two, grab it when you buy milk.

So those are some options.

Hope this helps.
Leo
 
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butlern

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Good heavens, Leo.

You've composed the "definite work" on these matters!

Appreciate all the clarification and suggestions (and the time you spent compiling all that helpful information!).

Best,

Noah
 

butlern

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Also, yes, I spent some time investigating rain barrels, and it seems no matter the brand/make/model (in the $100-200 range), these things leak at the spigot, get shipped without all accessories, get shipped with holes in them, or arrive damaged.

If someone has some recommendations on barrels and diverter systems, I am all ears!

Noah
 

leatherback

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we have high chlorine and some other nasties. I use a house filter on all my water so i would rather use less of the toxic stuff. I found a generic all carbon filter I ordered a 4 pack of. We'll see how it goes. I think just removing some chlorine and pesticides and herbicide
[ off topic]
I am always shocked when I read posts like this. Do you still have chlorine in tapwater in the USA? I remember that as a kid there used to be chlorine in drinking water here. But for decades (?) that is gone, afaik. And herbicides and pesticides? Do your water plants not filter the water? [/ off topic]
 

Hartinez

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Ok. So your above post really clicked some light bulbs on for me @Leo in N E Illinois . You’ve seen my other post about perceived fungal issues I’m having on most of my trees. The more I thought about my yearly cycle of trees the more this made sense.

Every year many of my trees, especially my deciduous, look excessively tired, and because of this, I rarely get the fall show that they should put on. Even in my elms and other native species. My Junipers and Mugo pines seem to be just fine and my junipers in particular really put on growth vascularly every year as this is usually when I see excessive wire bites and callous forming between my dead and live wood. The only junipers that really struggle for me are my 2 shimpaku. This year I’ve tried adding trident maples to the mix, starting with both seed and several year old starts. I also started several flats of JBP. The trident seedlings did awful from the start and the older starts did ok for a bit, but have only suffered since my second move. The JBP seedlings have done great, even with the seedling cutting technique applied.

What I’m pulling from this years results, past years results and from your above post Leo, is that fungus is a secondary issue and that my real issue lies within my poor water quaility in the cities I’ve lived in this year and all of the years Ive done Bonsai. Ive been concerned for my PH for a few years now, but reading above and the reasons for stating, PH is not my issue, but the hardness, alkalinity and chlorine count found in our municipal water. I believe what is happening is the buffering capacity of my trees in my fully inorganic substrate is overwhelmed and exhausted by late summer and because of this, fungal pathogens take advantage of trees that are not taking up the necessary nutrients needed to fight off the fungus present. All summer my native deciduous thrived until a couple of weeks after my second move. My mugo pine also struggled. The combination of Albuquerque’s poor water and the even worse water from Los Lunas have made for my worst year yet. Every other year it has just been Albuquerques water that is the issue. Everything seems to thrive then drastically struggle around the end of august. While I know many plants tend to look tired regardless, my trees look not just tired, but completely exhausted. All of my problems aren’t just water though, I work stuff too hard at times as well.

My question for you Leo is about my thoughts on solutions. My first thought is to fill multiple 5 gallons buckets and leave them to sit for 1 or 2 nights then use that water. Expecting the chlorine and other contaminants to evaporate off. At least enough that is for the buffering capacity of my trees roots to maintain through to the end of the year.

My other thought is to purchase a micro RO system that @cmeg1 suggested I purchase, which may happen regardless. It’s only 113 dollars and is compact and hooks directly to a hose. I would then need to add nutrients to this water replace the nutrients filtered off. In particular, as recommended, a cal-mag supplement.

Phew. Ok, in responding Leo, please know that my expertise and knowledge does not lie in plant biology, so go easy on me. I’m a carpenter and designer, so if you want to talk wood and design concepts I’m great! 😅

Either way, I really appreciated that long post from above.
 

Leo in N E Illinois

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Hey Danny. @Hartinez
I think you are thinking right. Summer is your "dry season" meaning you have to water more often. It very well could be the high dissolved solids that are causing your problems with maples and deciduous.

While chlorine may be less than ideal, I don't think allowing the chlorine to evaporate will diminish the problem enough to make a difference. Your big problem is excess calcium & other dissolved minerals. Usually the chlorine and the volatile hydrocarbons are all that gass off when allowed to stand in buckets or drums. Potable water regulations require the volatile hydrocarbons is pretty low. I doubt that stuff that can gass off is your problem.

Your problem is total alkalinity, which can be estimated from total dissolved solids. Your municipality should be publishing a repot once a year with test results of several sample of the municipal water. The report may list actual total alkalinity, or it might just list total dissolved solids. Check that if you can find it on line. If it is over 400 mg/liter as calcium carbonate, or over 450 parts per million total dissolved solids, you have a problem.

Since rainfall is rare, collecting rain water, in order to work would have to be an elaborate system using the roof of your house, and be able to store as much of the rain as possible for the many months when rain is rare.

A mini-RO device is perfect, you can make just enough water for your more sensitive trees. The JBP and Junipers, which seem fine with your water can still be watered with the municipal water.

Adding a touch, and I mean only a touch, 1/8 teaspoon per gallon of a Cal-Mag fertilizer will prevent chlorosis, or you can just add an ounce or two of your hard city water back to each gallon of RO water and you will avoid calcium deficiencies that way. At least the first few times you use RO water, don't add anything, you have excess salts built up in your potting mix and in the trees. Leach them out a week or two. Then start back adding a little tap water.
 

Hartinez

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Thanks Leo. Good to know on the buckets of water. I wont waste my time with that at this point. I will though def be getting a simple RO setup. I’m attaching my water quality report and if you have a sec. I’d love for you to have a quick look. The calcium is only showing an average of about 53 ppm and 73 on the high side. But, that doesnt seem to make a ton of sense. Why are my trees struggling so much by end of season? My watering regimen is awfully tight. Why do tridents, J maples and azaleas die off so quickly? as you noted above, we are so dry here and even as I was posting that other thread, I knew in the back of my head that fungus is unlikely unless the tree is weakened by some other issue. My pots def get a build up of what I believe is calcium leading me to believe there is an excess amount. I feel like I don’t entirely trust the report being put out. I feel so certain that my biggest issue is water quality, though the report doesn’t entirely bare that out. Unless I’m reading it wrong of course. Only way I guess to really know is after a full season of water from an RO system. Leo, as always, I appreciate your advice. I look forward to when you may have a visit to Abq down the road.

 
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Leo in N E Illinois

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I got good news and bad news.

The good news is, your water is medium hardness, you have a much lower total alkalinity 87.3 mg/liter as calcium carbonate than I expected. My city water is 179 mg/liter, and my azaleas don't mind getting watered with it about half the time (other half is rain water).

The bad news is, your water is not the cause of your problems. You don't need to buy the RO system.

Your sulfate average of 69 ppm, is high compared to what I usually see in my area, but it is actually a needed plant nutrient, so not something to worry about. You really do not need to add sulfur containing fertilizers as you are getting plenty in your water and likely additional sulfur from your air pollution. But the sulfur, as bacteria go to work on it, could be the reason you think your water is bad, because it probably smells bad.

I have a thought. You have a fairly high sulfate content, and a very moderate total alkalinity. This means that most of the calcium in your water is in the form of calcium sulfate, which is also known as gypsum. The reason your hard water scale on your pots is so hard to remove, gypsum does not dissolve as easily as calcium carbonate when vinegar is applied. (the vinegar is only for cleaning pots, not acidifying your water).

An additional thought. I get rain, at least once every 10 days, even in the dry periods of summer. This frequent rain probably explains why my plants don't seem to have any trouble with my water that is nearly double the hardness of your water. You can go months without rain. RO especially during drought periods might be a good solution. Give it a try.

But over all, you water is not that bad. The sulfate makes it stinky, especially where bacteria get going, but your over all calcium levels are not that high.

Part of your plants looking so beat up at the end of summer may just be the damage that low relative humidity can cause. If your relative humidity frequently drops below 50 %, especially if it drops into the 20% range, water is transpiring and just plain evaporating out of leaves so fast than species evolved for forest habitats in more humid areas simply can not keep up. Parts of Japan are considered temperate rainforest, with a climate more like Seattle or Portland than not. Trees like Japanese maples and Trident maples are not adapted to desert conditions.

Also as I type this I think of Smoke, Al Keppler, who grows trident maples in the Central Valley of California, where 110 F and 10% humidity is pretty frequent. Though I believe Al waters 3 times a day.

Okay, I'm rambling. You have me stumped. Grasping at straws, I'd say give RO a try. Sorry I could not be more helpful, but its is clear that if your water was here, in my relatively cool summer climate, I would be delighted with your water test results. (unless of course your city is publishing a bullshit report) But we got to work with what we have. Getting a lab to run Total Alkalinity, and Total Dissolved Solids for you would be around $40 for the Total Alkalinity and $20 for the TDS. To replicate the full city report to see if they were lying would be about $200 to $300.
 

GBarb

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My eyes went directly to the pH of 7.7, although other people may not have issues with this pH/alkalinity level, this all depends son the type of fertiliser used (organic vs inorganic, and the amount of nitrification occurring) and the type of substrate being used.

What substrate are you using for your potting medium?
And what fertiliser are you using? And how often?
Have you done a soil pH test? PH about neutral will lock out a lot of nutrients.
 

Leo in N E Illinois

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My eyes went directly to the pH of 7.7, although other people may not have issues with this pH/alkalinity level, this all depends son the type of fertiliser used (organic vs inorganic, and the amount of nitrification occurring) and the type of substrate being used.

What substrate are you using for your potting medium?
And what fertiliser are you using? And how often?
Have you done a soil pH test? PH about neutral will lock out a lot of nutrients.

If you are using municipal water, I would be MUCH more alarmed if the pH was less than 7.7, the reason is LEAD POISONING. In USA 100% of all municipal water systems are REQUIRED to buffer the pH to 7.8 to 8.5, this is to prevent lead poisoning. Water with pH below somewhere around 7.5 will begin leaching lead from old lead service plumbing, from the solder used to join segments of copper pipe, and lead can be leached from brass valves and fittings. Lead leaches into neutral and acidic water. The more acidic, the quicker, the greater the quantity of lead will leach out of the various sources I listed. If you have children in particular, PANIC if you tap water ever tests less than 7.8 pH/ Call your city immediately.

Most cities use relatively weak buffer systems to get the water to be alkaline. Plants usually can easily compensate for this alkalinity. The pH is a trivial problem.

What is significant is learning what the buffer capacity of your water is. This is the capacity to resist pH changes by the addition of an acid or base. The measurement that directly expresses this trait is Total Alkalinity, and is reported as mg/liter as calcium carbonate or as parts per million as calcium carbonate. If you Total Alkalinity is under 50 mg/liter as calcium carbonate your water is soft water. It will take very little acid or base to change pH. Plants will have zero trouble adapting to this water.

50 mg/liter to 300 mg/liter as calcium carbonate is medium total alkalinity. For all but extremely sensitive trees and plants, like carnivorous plants, this water will be fine without adjustment.

300 mg/liter to 600 mg/liter as calcium carbonate - this is high end of medium or low end of hard water. Some adjustment may be needed to be made for sensitive species, but this level of total alkalinity is considered acceptable for horticultural use, commercial nurseries and irrigation for crops, this water is still viewed as "manageable".

Above 600 mg/liter as calcium carbonate - this is hard water. This is above what is recommended for landscape nurseries - at this level one should think about various water treatments. RO, DI, and other methods to obtain lower total alkalinity water are appropriate. Here pH adjustments are appropriate.

Does this make sense to you ?
 
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