Western Display Concepts

[Attila Soos]

Rock,

Your eloquent and thorough description of what makes bonsai different from a sculpture is right on the mark. But I have to ask, what difference does that make, if Walter's exhibit proves to be a success?

You have to admit that bonsai will only thrive in our culture, if there is some degree of commercial success associated with it. Which inevitably means that people will find alternative ways of displaying them. We can always show them the subtle beauty of a three-point display, but at the end, they will do it the way they see fit. I am sure that there may be instances when I would draw the line and disagree, in order to preserve the dignity and respect for these trees, but displaying them as sculptures is not one of them.

 

[rockm]

"But I have to ask, what difference does that make, if Walter's exhibit proves to be a success?

You have to admit that bonsai will only thrive in our culture, if there is some degree of commercial success associated with it."

I guess this is what bothers me about the push to Westernize bonsai. Is it that bonsaists just want to be accepted by the cool kids in the art class? or do they just want to sell a lot more expensive trees? or sell a lot more less expensive trees? Do they just want their bonsai in art museums or art galleries next to tanks of well-lighted urine ?

Or is it more acceptance by the masses--which means more mediocre trees being mass marketed...?, or is it more a general appreciation of bonsai itself and nature as a whol-something that can't be measured and isn't very profitable.

What is "success" for Western bonsai?

How do we know if Walter's exhibit was successful--would it be more leased BMWs overall? More BMW drivers oohing and ahhing as they paused to drink their free showroom espresso in front of the red lighted pine?

I'd always thought Walter had been successful in bonsai, all one has to do is look at the breadth and depth of his collection and the skill it took to produce it...

I suspect all this is going to be measured differently by different people.

 

[Attila Soos]

What is "success" for Western bonsai?

Success = respect amongst peers + commercial success

The above is my loose definition of success, if you are a professional. As a professional, your trees, as well as your services should be in demand. And I don't mean volunteer work at your local club.
As a mallsai vendor, you may have commercial success, but you would lack the high respect factor. I think you need both, to call yourself successful.

As a hobbyist, all you need is personal satisfaction.

 

[Marija Hajdic]

Is this sculpture?:
http://www.google.com/images?q="Andy+Goldsworthy"&um=1&hl=en&tbs=isch:1&sa=N&start=0&ndsp=18
"Andy Goldsworthy is a brilliant British artist who collaborates with nature to make his creations."

And no, bonsai is not simply "living sculpture" IMO. That's a simplistic explanation. It is more and it is less than that. Sculpture is three dimensional, bonsai is four (time is the fourth) Without that fourth dimension, bonsai would only be sculpture.

Really?
http://shop.nms.ac.uk/products/Time-Andy-Goldsworthy.html
"Time is always a crucial element in the work of Andy Goldsworthy – both as a medium and as a metaphor."

 

[Attila Soos]

Is this sculpture?:
http://www.google.com/images?q="Andy+Goldsworthy"&um=1&hl=en&tbs=isch:1&sa=N&start=0&ndsp=18
"Andy Goldsworthy is a brilliant British artist who collaborates with nature to make his creations."

Andy Goldsworthy must be the most original and creative artist I've ever seen in my entire life. This guy is absolutely amazing. The only thing that I admire more than his creativity, is his courage to be able to carry through his projects, and sell it to the public.

Did you see on the second page of your link, a large boulder in the middle of the stream, painted in bright yellow? To me, that is the ultimate definition of art. You can't describe it, can't define it, but it touches your heart deeply.
A piece of yellow rock. What is more simple and brilliant?

 

[Mojosan]

Attila, it's not paint, it is yellow leaves from nearby river bank.

 

[Marija Hajdic]

... and it is very natural.

 

[rockm]

Is this sculpture?:

It's not bonsai...I see images taken of living things. The images (brilliant as they are) are the art, not the things themselves...Rearranging rocks in a stream and placing leaves on them is not really the same thing as bonsai, is it? Really? Is it permanent? I think the notion of "time" is being used very differently by us and by goldsworthy. He isn't talking about using time to construct something. He's talking primarily about time as simply aging something without much help from man...?

Who are our "peers" in the art world? Modern artists, post modern, punk, who?

What is "demand"--a dozen people asking for your time who aren't in icky bonsai clubs? or is it a hundred? To be successful, do those people have to be rich and not knowledgeable about bonsai? Or can they be "hobbyists" interested in developing their own skills?

I'm sorry, but all this seems a bit too, well, diffuse...and "I know it when I see it" subjectivity...

 

[John Ruger]

And here we have the "westernization" of the art of bonsai...the new handmaid of corporatism.

 

[Walter Pall]

What is "success" for Western bonsai?

How do we know if Walter's exhibit was successful--would it be more leased BMWs overall? More BMW drivers oohing and ahhing as they paused to drink their free showroom espresso in front of the red lighted pine?

I'd always thought Walter had been successful in bonsai, all one has to do is look at the breadth and depth of his collection and the skill it took to produce it...

I suspect all this is going to be measured differently by different people.

These trees in the exhibit have to get watered every day. We do this with a big sprayer. I spend about three quarters of an hour to just make everything dripping wet. (btw. the acrylic stands are extremely useful for that. It does not matter at all whether they get wet). Anyway, while I water lots of people come close and look at the trees. They often just ignore me and speak to each other. Often they also ask me questions. They are usually quite amazed. They came to this enormous car event show and did not expect anything like trees in pots. They all have a vague understanding of bonsai. And without exception they say the this is fantastic, that they had no idea how great bonsai could be, that this is great art, that they adore it, and, yes, that they admire me.

I must admit it does me good to go watering there. I do get a lot of attention from the bonsai world. But the attention of the general public is overwhelming. Not that I absolutely must have this. But while I get it for free It is quite welcome.

So for me personally this is a big event. But it is not about myself, it is about the art of bonsai. It gets enormous attention which it probably never got before her in my area. We had several European bonsai conventions here, we had the big WBFF Convention in 2001 here. We had numbers of visitors from 1,000 to 5,000. Of these 5,000 I think about 4,000 were bonsai people who came here specifically to see he bonsai.

At the BMW World there are on average 10,000 visitors EVERY day. This is one of the biggest attraction in Germany. BMW has ongoing art exhibits since years there. Now one can find art exhibits in many places. Banks do it, government does it; it is a general vehicle to try to capture an audience and help your image as company. There is a crew of watch persons in the hall all the time. This crew by and large is the same over the year. They have seen the crowds watching art exhibits there many times. The keep telling me that the art exhibits never ever had as much attention by the general public as the 'tree sculptures'.

The exhibit is on for three months. This is rather unheard of too. Many folks come back a couple of weeks later to see the next batch. These are people who would NEVER go to a bonsai convention exhibit. Many BMW folks go see the exhibit every day in their leisure time.

So is this not a big success?

 

[Bill S]

I think so Walter, your statement re. bonsai people going to the convention, not the "regular" people says a lot. Now when you can get to set up at a place where 10000 regular people will get to see the trees, and they are pulled to the exhibit, and are pleased, I'd call it a success.

Would anyone refuse to do an exhibit like this, because of exhibit style principles, not many I'd bet.

 

[Attila Soos]

So is this not a big success?

BMW could have chosen so many other things to exhibit. The fact that they chose bonsai, is almost unimaginable to me. How many artists would give an arm and a leg to have their works exposed to so many visitors. The prestige of BMW could probably draw any artist to such a show.

This is beyond any success that a bonsaist can wish for, because it comes from outside the bonsai world.

 

[Mike Page]

BMW could have chosen so many other things to exhibit. The fact that they chose bonsai, is almost unimaginable to me. How many artists would give an arm and a leg to have their works exposed to so many visitors. The prestige of BMW could probably draw any artist to such a show.

This is beyond any success that a bonsaist can wish for, because it comes from outside the bonsai world.

If bonsai is accepted as an art form by those that deal in art, can we finally say with assurance that bonsai is an art?

Mike

 

[Victrinia Ensor]

If bonsai is accepted as an art form by those that deal in art, can we finally say with assurance that bonsai is an art?

Mike

Surely its status as an artform isn't in question???



V

 

[Mike Page]

Surely its status as an artform isn't in question???



V

Ms. Vic, there have always been those that believe only "static" and "finished" objects are art. I suppose the reasoning is that bonsai, along with other horticultural arts are finite, therefore not in the catagory of paintings, sculpture, etc.

You say it's art. I say it's art. It must be art!

Mike

 

[tiswas]

And here we have the "westernization" of the art of bonsai...the new handmaid of corporatism.

and what hasnt corporate America not used yet ?

Originally Posted by rockm

What is "success" for Western bonsai?

How do we know if Walter's exhibit was successful--would it be more leased BMWs overall? More BMW drivers oohing and ahhing as they paused to drink their free showroom espresso in front of the red lighted pine?

I'd always thought Walter had been successful in bonsai, all one has to do is look at the breadth and depth of his collection and the skill it took to produce it...

I suspect all this is going to be measured differently by different people

well if success is measured in how much people talk about this then its been very sucessful, I personally think its better than the traditional Japanese way of displaying bonsai after all we arn't in Japan or are Japanese

 

[Klytus]

I still find it amusing that BMW found Bonsai too hackneyed,as a word it was probably not long enough.

 

[John Ruger]

There are some very interesting methods of bonsai display in Japan where they were incorporated with with a myriad of other traditional and non-traditional modalities to include Toyota concept-cars. For the Japanese to do so is more understandable, at least for me-they already have a bonsai tradition extending back for centuries, they already understand the medium. In the Western nations, this isn't the case, yet. My concern is not the idea of experimenting with display forms, but whether or not the general public and those with the deep pockets who may become patrons understand the medium.

 

[rockm]

Walter,

Surely congratulations are in order. I didn't quite understand the breadth of what was being done.

The sucess of the exhibit is not in question as far as exposing people to bonsai. Surely that is a very positive thing for everyone.

Undoubtedly exposing bonsai to a wider world is certainly a measure of success. It does beat exhibiting bonsai to a closed circle of Western bonsai people.

 

[Yamadori]

At the BMW World there are on average 10,000 visitors EVERY day. The exhibit is on for three months. This is rather unheard of too. Many folks come back a couple of weeks later to see the next batch. These are people who would NEVER go to a bonsai convention exhibit. Many BMW folks go see the exhibit every day in their leisure time.

So is this not a big success?

That is fantastic.

You might inspire a whole new batch of folks. Some of them may start into bonsai years from now and say, "I remember seeing some trees at the BMW World and I always wanted to try it". maybe you can get some paying patrons who will have you care for their trees like in Japan.