What defines a Good Bonsai from the Also Rans....

[MichaelS]

You have a great eye and I appreciate what you see and how it makes you feel.

Regarding the Zelokova's....I agree that the large tree seems a little out of place...maybe the pointy-ness of the large tree could be giving it an unatural look?

Would simply taking a few inches off the top of the tree and rounding it off change your view of this arrangement?

Maybe the "flaw" you see is the artist trying to meet a rule? An attempt at creating a triangle using the canopies of the small trees and the primary tree to meet in an angular fashion.

Could a small change like this make a big impact?

Just trying to learn here. Thank you

It would help but not enough. The back trees are shaped as classic brooms and the front tree is shaped more formal upright with the branches half way up too heavy and too horizontal.
The main tree should be removed and replaced by one stolen from here: IMO of coarse!

 

[ColinFraser]

From my bookshelf:



Look at all familiar? A seriously quotable caption

 

[Vance Wood]

From my bookshelf:

View attachment 135239

Look at all familiar? A seriously quotable caption

An example of what I just recently pointed out to an individual: You can grow a tree up into a bonsai but the amount of time and talent it would take to do it would be better served by taking larger material and cutting it down into bonsai. Most people getting into bonsai today will find this out pretty quickly but years ago when I got bit by the bug, the concept/secret of the major cut down, was not common knowledge. Many of the concepts in bonsai that really make a difference have not been so freely given by the bonsai community. In fact; many of the early bonsai books dealt with growing from seed and really young and uninteresting nursery material that will not make a bonsai of any description except bad, in anything less than twenty years.

One of the secrets that they don't tell you is as soon as you put your little tree in a bonsai pot, or in this case on a rock, the tree will not develop much over the years that will improve the tree. It is true the tree will start to look older if it lives but most of the time they do not.

 

[ColinFraser]

View attachment 135072 View attachment 135073 View attachment 135074 View attachment 135075

they don't take years & years to Train & Mature into Good Bonsai

Interesting. So, how long do you think it will take for these examples to become "good bonsai?"

 

[Vance Wood]

Interesting. So, how long do you think it will take for these examples to become "good bonsai?"

The bottom line is the amount of talent executed with them. I would add this caveat to the eternal equations of bonsai: Result is directly related to the amount of talent and effort applied to a particular project. The old expression that you cannot polish a turd is only applicable to those who do not wish to polish a turd or have found out that sometimes what you thought was good stuff was actually a turd. In fact there are people out there that indeed could polish a turd, and for better or worse because of talent they could pull it off. But then again, I have been accused of not knowing the difference between shit and shinola. So today I grow Mugo Pines.

 

[M. Frary]

polish a turd

They tend to fall apart when I try.

 

[Bolero]

Interesting. So, how long do you think it will take for these examples to become "good bonsai?"

These examples do not fall into the category of Good Bonsai or Also Rans,,,they are not stand alone Bonsai....rather Groupings or Penjing, however as they Mature with age they will become more Naturalistic looking & could even be considered as Bonsai looking, but not really Bonsai...

This year I will be looking for a starter or pre bonsai that will appear somewhat like my OP requirements and go from there...IMO Bonsai Gardening is all about satisfying ones Goals and Accomplishments and Self Gratification...

I think of myself as a Bonsai Style Gardener and not even Remotely as good as an Adair or V.Wood or many other Bonsai Master's here on BN however I Appreciate, Admire and am Inspired by these Masters...

 

[Vance Wood]

These examples do not fall into the category of Good Bonsai or Also Rans,,,they are not stand alone Bonsai....rather Groupings or Penjing, however as they Mature with age they will become more Naturalistic looking & could even be considered as Bonsai looking, but not really Bonsai...

This year I will be looking for a starter or pre bonsai that will appear somewhat like my OP requirements and go from there...IMO Bonsai Gardening is all about satisfying ones Goals and Accomplishments and Self Gratification...

I think of myself as a Bonsai Style Gardener and not even Remotely as good as an Adair or V.Wood or many other Bonsai Master's here on BN however I Appreciate, Admire and am Inspired by these Masters...

I thank you for considering me a Master, something I consider myself far from being. However; I am more than willing to help anyone who asks for help or an opinion, or a conversation, or a picture if I have one. I always try to not post things I am not familiar with or have not done or have not tried. I have been doing this long enough to know that there are a lot of things out that can be done that I have not done for one reason or another but one thing I know for sure: It is not that they cannot be done. I have also been doing this long enough to realize that there may be more than one path to glory so to speak. I have come to understand that I can picture something in my mind and if I approach it from a different direction than I have in the past that the results may be drastically different.

I have also learned that if I don't try to acquire the knowledge I seem to lack it is not going to reveal itself in a flash of lightening or by eating a magic berry. It is going to come through hard work, curiosity, and the love of what I am trying to do.

 

[Relknes]

[Historical aside that may only be interesting to me: there was a philosopher in ancient Greece that was obsessed with the question of how we get information from one person's mind to another. There are several ways: words, symbols, gestures, etc. Art is one way of communicating an idea/emotion/story/etc.]

When I think of any type of art, and bonsai is certainly an art form, I tend to judge its success by how well it communicates the creator's intent.
Some bonsai artists want to communicate a sense of awe at the beauty of nature. Their bonsai might be considered good if the tree looks untouched by human hands, like a miniature version of a tree that one might see on a hike through the mountains.
Other bonsai artists want to communicate a sense of harmony between the actions of man and nature. Their bonsai might be considered good if the tree looks like an idealized form, the sort of perfection that neither man nor nature could achieve on their own, but only comes about through harmony between the two.
Other times an artist might want to communicate a sense of overcoming adversity, and a twisted and tortured form might be successful, one that communicates not harmony but sheer stubbornness and a will to live and even thrive in the midst of brutal conditions.
Or perhaps they want to tell a story: a lightning strike that a tree recovered from, or a rock slide that it survived, or a lone tree dangling out over a cliff and beaten by constant winds.
Great bonsai communicate something. They speak to an idea, or convey an emotion, or whisper a secret, or tell a story that only they can tell.
"Also rans" are bonsai that don't communicate their intended message, perhaps because of a lack or skill by the artist, perhaps because the material is not well suited for conveying that particular idea (yet), or perhaps because the artist didn't have a clear idea of what they wanted to communicate.
This is, to me, why some "Rule following" trees are pretty mediocre, while others can be truly stunning: the first group followed the rules without having any particular emotion or story or idea to communicate, while the second used the rules to tell their story. The same could be said of "Naturalistic" trees, which is really just a different set of rules that are being followed.
Just my two cents...

 

[Vance Wood]

These examples do not fall into the category of Good Bonsai or Also Rans,,,they are not stand alone Bonsai....rather Groupings or Penjing, however as they Mature with age they will become more Naturalistic looking & could even be considered as Bonsai looking, but not really Bonsai...

This year I will be looking for a starter or pre bonsai that will appear somewhat like my OP requirements and go from there...IMO Bonsai Gardening is all about satisfying ones Goals and Accomplishments and Self Gratification...

I think of myself as a Bonsai Style Gardener and not even Remotely as good as an Adair or V.Wood or many other Bonsai Master's here on BN however I Appreciate, Admire and am Inspired by these Masters...

The real question for you, for me, for every body: Are you as good as you want to be? If you answer yes, then enjoy yourself and do bonsai until you take the great dirt bath we are all destined to take. If you answered no, then what needs to happen to make you better? Go to Japan and make yourself an apprentice to Kimura, if he will accept you? What do you think will accomplish that task. Give it some thought.

 

[milehigh_7]

I read a quote once, wish I could remember who said it, that has always stuck with me is that Life's 3 mysteries are love, art and religion. Who we love, the art that appeals, and the religion or lack thereof that you follow are each subjective and individual. And bonsai is art.

Many would argue that Bonsai is equal parts science, love, religion, and art...

 

[music~maker]

Looks like I'm late to the party on this one, but a few thoughts.

For me, the ones that stand out are the ones that make me believe that they're a miniature tree. One that I could imagine standing next to as a miniature person, that I could picture sitting underneath and having a picnic. The also-rans all generally have some element that breaks the illusion of scale, whether it's the wrong pot, poor nebari, out of scale branches or leaves, overly manicured look, picasso-level jin and shari, etc.

I can appreciate the more traditional styles for what they are, and especially all the work that goes into them, but the ones that always stand out are the ones that really make me feel like I'm in the scene.

I said this in another forum recently, but it definitely applies here. Nature is my final arbiter of what makes a good tree. I study actual trees every chance I get, and I draw inspiration from the beauty and structure I see in real-life trees. For me, the best bonsai reflect that natural beauty, and make me believe that this tree could have feasibly grown on its own in nature somewhere.

Even when I acquire new, less refined material, my strategy is to look for things that I believe have the potential to be refined into a natural-looking, miniature tree over time. If it doesn't, it's generally an automatic pass.

The way I develop my trees reflects all of this. I tend to set them on a particular path with the initial styling, and then gradually just let them grow out and scale up. During this process, I'll balance prune occasionally to keep things moving in the direction I want, but I mostly just leave the tree to it's own devices, with occasional interventions to keep things interesting. As I intervene, it's generally all about adding elements of age and character through wiring and pruning, with the intent of making what's there look like it could have happened on a full-scale tree over a period of many years. For me, it's far less about the formal rules than it is about answering the one burning question: Could this feature on this tree have plausibly happened in nature?

 

[Mike Corazzi]

lessons

 

[Mike Corazzi]

I guess "masterpiece" ....HAS... to have different meaning to different folks.
Just like music. If we all considered the theme from Mr. Ed to be our favorite song, that's what the goal would be.

I guess if you look at one of your trees and see what YOU think should come out or be bent to create an effect YOU would like to ...try, then it is a masterpiece of something you will learn.

And if you find solace or pleasure in learning, then you have mastered something.

Which (goodly or badly) can define YOUR "bonsai."

or not.

 

[abqjoe]

If I like it it's a good Bonsai

 

[LanceMac10]

Judges will tell you what separates good from also ran.....after that, it's pretty much between you and the tree.

 

[Vance Wood]

Judges will tell you what separates good from also ran.....after that, it's pretty much between you and the tree.

It is after all; when you take into account all of the "RULES" if any, when the smoke clears it really is a judgement call on the part of the Judge and I have been present for some really bad decisions on some really bad parameters. You cannot always count on the impartiality of the Judge they are after all flawed just like the rest of us. Sometimes they are influenced by the fairness doctrine, sometimes they are influenced by a friend, sometimes they are influenced by the club or organization that has sponsored them and some of them are influenced by a profound dislike---or like for an individual involved. In the end we are often left with an itchy scalp as to why this was good and this was not. If you are happy with your choice be happy with you choice. When you run into trouble is when you start defending or challenging what has happened.

 

[Mike Corazzi]

If I were the judge, I'd want to consider the health of the tree color, then the trunk for shape, size, taper, and texture and almost even weight to the foliage with more emphasis on the general composition or "essence."
And THEN take the bribe.

 

[milehigh_7]

I HATE THIS THREAD!

I would say you are really getting it. If we start with an "also ran" as a baseline, we are still talking a bonsai as it had to be in the race. That carries with it some definitions that are not needed in this conversation. Things like "bonsai rules", and basic horticulture that you must master or it's not a bonsai it's a stick in a pot or worse it's something that will be dead soon. So your enlightenment here is getting you past that into why we look at Smoke, Vance, Adair, BVF, Walter and many others that grace the site with wonder and admiration. It's because they are at a place where the minimum requirements seem to come without effort (at least to us) and the trees they put up seem to have something a little extra, something undefinable.

 

[Vance Wood]

I can speak only for myself, if you have read any of the stuff I have written about in the last twelve hours or so you will soon come to the conclusion that I do not boast of any inherent esoteric artistic sense but have exercised a what I do have coupled with a lot of hard work and an unwillingness to give up on a project to get my trees where they are.

It was not too long ago these columns were filled with the testimonies of people who had seen the light, and sold, or tossed out all of their old trees and started over with thousands of dollars worth of pre-bonsai. They invested thousands of dollars to attend classes in the far reaches of Timbuckthree, or California or somewhere---- costing a multitude of dollars to get there and even more to stay there. And like the INTERNET cures for what ever ailes you with these magic cures, you watch this forty-five minute---fifteen minute video with the answer at the end, which includes you spending a mountain of money to download a book or program just to be hounded with other remedies for conditions real or imagined.

So to the enthusiastic bonsai aficionado dons his helmet and goes about jousting at wind mills. Concave cutter in hand and a roll of #4 wire around his torso like a belt of .30 caliber machine gun ammunition the enthusiastic bonsaiist goes about righting the wrongs of bad teaching and technical errors world wide. Not yet having a tree of his or her own, convinced that with their acquired by osmosis knowledge, through exposure to a wonderful sensei that they soon will be a master in their own right. They go about telling anyone and everyone whether they want to hear it or not, just how horrible their bonsai really are and that they really have all the answers,---just ask them.

In short some of you think my trees are wonderful, I do not. Some of them are OK but I do not throw stuff out, and that's where the difference lies. I continually work on or rework everything to make it better. When I tell you that my trees are only the results of a lot of hard and dedicated work I am not lying to you. I have learned from them and now my work is a lot quicker and more sure. There is nothing not one of you cannot do if you set your mind and heart to it.

There are only a couple of trees I now find beyond even my own efforts to improve, somone with better talent may get a a shot some day but other than that, most are candidates for the redesign and restyle.