What would y'all do with this azalea?

[Beetleman72]

I got this azalea about a month ago from the grocery store and I thought it would be a nice little bush to practice on. Its just finished blooming and before I trim it I figured I would see what y'all would do, so here are some pics.

 

[Poink88]

I'll shorten all the branches BUT NOT remove any of them totally...especially the ones low. Use them as sacrificial branches to thicken the trunk. Probably prune it like a Christmas tree (a cone) so all of them get some light and continue growing.

When it reached your desired thickness...start removing branches.

 

[Beetleman72]

It has two possible trunk lines. I think I like the straighter one better. Should I keep both of them for now?

 

[Harunobu]

Trim every branch back to 1 pair of leaves or so? Then see what happens.

If you cut all these branches back to 3 cm stubs, why not cut them back all the way? Seems like same risk of dieback.

 

[Poink88]

What is your target final bonsai size? This may play on which branches to develop/keep vs remove...and when.

If in doubt, keep both branches.

As Harunobu said, azalea's older branches have tendencies to die back so factor that in. Keep this in mind when you are doing your drastic removal of sacrificial branches...I've read that die back can go as far as the roots that feed it so weakening the branch first and giving the tree time to redirect flow is recommended (not drastic flush chop).

Good luck!

 

[Beetleman72]

I'm not really sure how big I want it to end up, I've never taken a raw nursery plant all the way to a finished bonsai. I got this one because it had pretty good trunk size already and I figured it could be something nice within 3-5 years. As I haven't yet made anything into a finished product I have trouble envisioning the final size and shape. If it was your tree what would you do?

 

[Poink88]

Nice trunk taper but still too small for me so if this is mine...

- I'd investigate under the soil a bit further and check if trunk goes deeper and if there is a nice nebari.
- Looks like this is sharing the pot with another plant...separate that or kill it if separating will compromise the main tree.
- Put it in a bigger grow box or ground (if that option is available). In ground, don't forget a tile or plastic under the plant so roots grow sideways.
- Trim it like a cone or better yet, like a dome and let it grow.
- Keep all low branches and use as sacrificial branches to build trunk girth.

Just my thoughts.

 

[Harunobu]

This isn't satsuki type so natural backbudding will be limited.

If you cut one branch to a 3cm stump, you have good odds of getting backbudding on that. But if you cut all these at the same time, there is risk. Now this azalea hasn't very good potential. A lot of random nursery material is similar (actually, this one is kind of decent, but compared to how Japanese style satsuki from cutting to bonsai, the kurume raw nursery material has big problems to fix).
So maybe you want to take risks with this, maybe not.

Cutting back to last leaves will stop the natural growth habit from 'damaging' the bonsai single trunk image you want to work towards as much as outright removing all of it right now. It's just that it is a slower but safer method.

The end goal will be to cut all of these side branches you have now eventually and have fine new growth growing out of the single trunk. Imo, all these branches are way too thick compared to the trunk to be in the final design. And almost all of these branches are thick enough for sacrificial branch purposes.

You may want to look around the trunk to find thin low branches you want to keep and grow thicker. These you can keep and let grow out fully. Like branches that can get much thicker than they are now without creating reserve taper or huge scars. They will provide some needed photosynthetic surface&energy.


As for roots, yeah it may be that roots have been 'pushed' upward and the actual trunk and 'nerbari line' are deeper under the soil/rootball than you think.
I'd suggest just cutting off the bottom 40% or so from the rootball. Untangling the roots is often impossible with azalea. Roots too thin, fragile and matted.
No tile is needed with azalea. The roots are shallow and grow sideways naturally.

 

[Beetleman72]

Ok. And other than uncovering the possible nebari and maybe straightening out the top roots should I do any other root work such as cutting the tap root, reducing the root mass, or bare rooting?

 

[Harunobu]

I think you missed a bit about roots because I added it later. Azalea have no tap root. Bare rooting is fine, unless it is midsummer in a Mediterranean area, but it is hard to get all the soil out of a nursery rootball.

Untangling the whole mess and attempting to bare root will end up in you tearing out whole parts, root and all, from the rootball.

From what I have heard, I can't say this from experience, just cutting off the bottom part of the rootball over and over eventually leads to okish nebari. I asked a Japanese grower and he said no special techniques are used on the roots to develop satsuki bonsai from cutting. Now this was through email and my Japanese is very basic. So maybe this isn't the whole story.

 

[Beetleman72]

I think you missed a bit about roots because I added it later. Azalea have no tap root. Bare rooting is fine, unless it is midsummer in a Mediterranean area, but it is hard to get all the soil out of a nursery rootball.

Untangling the whole mess and attempting to bare root will end up in you tearing out whole parts, root and all, from the rootball.

From what I have heard, I can't say this from experience, just cutting off the bottom part of the rootball over and over eventually leads to okish nebari. I asked a Japanese grower and he said no special techniques are used on the roots to develop satsuki bonsai from cutting. Now this was through email and my Japanese is very basic. So maybe this isn't the whole story.

So you would cut off the bottom of the roots, and reduce the branches that are currently there to about an inch while at the same time growing branches for the final branch placement. I dont really understand the concept of "sacrafice branches" and how to keep them as sacrafice branches while simultaneously developing the final branches. I also think that trimming it like a small dome is a great idea so that the lower branches will get sun as well.

 

[Harunobu]

Well with a plant like this it makes most sense to get small bonsai that consists out of the trunk you have and then fill that trunk up with a silhouette of foliage. So in that sense not a bonsai based on a trunk with branches. That generally requires a bigger and higher quality trunk.

Maybe this video will give an idea:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5oEB7OjlBl4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oatAnGO0ZSo


The width of a trunk will be proportional to the leaf surface area it needs to support. And a trunk will only have to thicken for those leaves it connects with the roots. A big mass of leaves on a low branch will only thicken the small trunk part just below it. Not above it.

Therefore for a thicker trunk with more taper you use sacrificial branches. You grow those with as much leaf surface as needed until you have the trunk you need. Then you start to remove it (generally bit by bit).
Azaleas usually can't be trunk chopped because they don't naturally grow trunks at all.

They grow a whirl of branches that eventually make it multi-trunked. For a single trunk bonsai design this is bad. Most nursery azalea will have reverse taper. Many plants will have a Y-shape just above soil level.

Whatever picture you have in mind for this azalea, it seems clear that in all cases branches that destroy the final single trunk by growing even fatter than they now are need to be pruned.
And secondly foliage needs to be put closer to the trunk.

I can't tell you if there are branches on this azalea you really want to grow out to generate a fatter trunk with more taper. But I do see some branches that are thin enough to not have to be cut off asap.

This azalea seems to have R.kaempferi blood and no R.indicum blood, so it is unlike all those azalea in the videos above. It will backbud less. But it will backbud on those stomps if you cut them at 1 inch. The risk of dieback is just higher. How high? I don't know. I haven't bought 50 kaempferi-types and cut them back hard as the guy in the videos above did (with satsuki-types).

So that is why I suggest, cut back to just a few leaves and have it backbud. Then cut back to just a few leaves 1 or 2 years later. That way get it closer to the trunk. That way you can get rid of all those long bald branches and get a silhouette of foliage(and flowers) around that trunk.

If you want to grow the trunk fatter, you don't prune some of the low branches on that trunk at all and you let them grow fatter than the fattest branch you have now. At that point you can start to slowly remove them.
You do prune the branches that make the current trunk worse if those branches would get even thicker.

You finish the trunk first. Then you think about branch structure if you want one.

 

[Beetleman72]

Wow! Thanks so much. I can't believe they have you listed as a pre bonsai on here. So if I shorten some of the branches the section of trunk below it will thicken more slowly than the sections below the branches I leave untrimmed

 

[Poink88]

Trunk thickening is cumulative going down the base and foliage qty is the key NOT the length of the branch. Usually untrimmed branches produce or keep more leaves but not always. Sometimes pruned ones are induced to produce more. Light exposure is also a key...covered bottom branches slowly get weaker until they succumb and die. JMHO.