Why no deadwood for broadleaf trees? Is it because they're "porous wooded" species, versus "non-porous wood/xylem" of conifers?

BobbyLane

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unless youre a master carver like Kevin wilson or Will baddely, often dead wood work will look a bit raw initially, whether on a conifer or a deciduous tree. overtime the wood cracks and fissures, turns a lighter more silvery colour, gains patina and character.
i could show a few examples of this.

intitial work on a hornbeam hollow

its not easy to get grain effect and detail in freshly carved wood.
the hawthorn below had all the chops done and the detail work was carried out a year after when the wood was drier.
2018-11-30_03-45-47 by Bobby Lane, on Flickr

a few years after

Will baddely initial carving before n after on hawthorn
 

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SU2

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thats your job as a bonsai artist to make it look good not just for the now but for the future. a bit of that will come down to how well you can visualise outcomes and consequences.
I'd say more-than "a bit"!! Of course we are all coming at this hobby from very different starting points, and since I'm in a semi-tropic area & I go for yamadori, I have lots & lots of "deciduous with deadwood" beasts in my nursery, this one dichotomy - coniferous V deciduous deadwood - is going to be costing me HARD!!

, the deadwood will last a very long time and ill enjoy it during that time and get more detail into the wood as time goes on
I wish there were some go-to guide for the woods of varying specie (I'm sure there is, but in a lumber/timber context, won't include bougainvillea or ficus!)

At any rate I've certainly learned to treat deciduous deadwood "as if it's not there", I agree I can enjoy it while it is but I've gotta design in a way that has no deadwood "at the end" (your pic has more of a 'deadwood feature', I have specimen that are 80% deadwood by mass/volume...bougainvilleas, crape myrtles etc like that...)
 

SU2

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For most broadleaves, if a branch dies it will soon break down, the wood will start to rot and hollows occur. For coniferous species that is just not the case. No matter which way you want to spin it, that is the main reason why. Next to the obvious, coniferous species often do not close over larger cuts as deciduous trees do.
You didn't actually *give* a reason why, you just state "that is the main reason why".....what is this reason? As I'd mentioned, I just learned (via the ISA study guide) that the core difference in the xylem(wood) of conifers-V-broadleafs is the absence of vessels in conifers (both have parenchyma cells, fibers and tracheids-- but broadleafs have vessels as well, and conifers do not....when I read that the light-bulb went off in my head, "That's why bonsai deadwood is just a conifer thing" (I'd always figured that rule was aesthetic in nature..)
 

SU2

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BTW **love** that beasty-based Hawth., am guessing it's positioned that way because that's its "Front", and that its Back has a massive chop-scar? Anyway that thing is a good example of the type of bonsai I do, big fat bases / exaggeratedly-stout canopies on deciduous yamma's (excepting my BC's, a Juniper that ChoppyChop gifted me and, to my recent knowledge, learned my sole Podo yamma is a conifer :D )
 

Leo in N E Illinois

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Ya'all are over thinking it. Bonsai is an art. There are no rules in art. Sure, one can spout "guidelines", which are used when inspiration is lacking. Forget the rules. If the deadwood looks good, use it in your design. Even back in the 1960's Mary Madison and others were collecting Florida buttonwood with incredible old deadwood. In fact, the leaves on buttonwood are large, and they do not reduce much. Without deadwood, there is little reason to grow buttonwood. Deadwood on deciduous has been a well accepted fact since 1960's, and any whiners who think it isn't just have not looked at old show photos. They have forgotten bonsai history.

This whole discussion of "whether or not deadwood is allowed on broadleaf trees" is a dead issue, the question was answered back in the 1960's or even earlier.

If the deadwood is natural or created, as long as it "looks good" and can be incorporated into the design no problem. Use it. Broadleaf or deciduous, it doesn't matter. Key is whether it makes artistic sense. Of course there is natural nature made deadwood, there is man made deadwood, and there are trees with a mix of both. If it looks good, it does not matter.

If you start with 100 bonsai beginners, more than half the people in that group will have dropped out by the 5 year mark. Maybe 25% of the group stick with bonsai for more than 10 years, it is a rare few that make the 20 year mark and even less that make it longer. Only a very small percentage of the trees started by these people will actually get passed on to others and and exceed 25 years in cultivation. It hardly matters whether deadwood lasts longer than 20 years or not, most of the trees created won't make the 20 year mark.

Now for the rare tree that does survive more than 20 year in cultivation. There are many wood products that can help the deadwood to "hang around longer" so as to avoid the need for a "redesign" yet. I believe Mr Francois Jeker of France wrote a book on creating and preserving deadwood that goes beyond just the use of lime-sulfur. If you are willing to travel to Milwaukee Wisconsin for the June 23 thru June 26, 2022, the Milwaukee Bonsai Society is celebrating its 50th year by hosting Mr Jeker and the 2022 MABA convention. I believe there are still openings for the Francois Jeker workshops. This event was postponed from 2020, due to Covid. Francois Jeker agreed to the 2022 dates. The Milwaukee Bonsai Society website has not changed all the dates from 2020 to 2022, so don't let the mixed up years confuse you, it will happen in 2022.


I know from my house painting father, and have tried it, and it works, painting the deadwood with a coat or two of boiled linseed oil once a year will help keep old deadwood from drying out and decaying easily. The linseed oil will make the deadwood somewhat waterproof. It is a natural product, distilled from flax seed. Linseed oil is the base for Thompson's Waterseal, without the pigments and the higher price.

A similar product is to dissolve pinion pine resin in turpentine and paint it on like linseed oil. There are a number of other do it yourself ways to make deadwood waterproof, which will allow it to last MANY years longer than it would in normal conditions. These treatments will work on broadleaf deadwood just as effectively as on conifer deadwood.

So pick up the books by Francois Jeker, and come see him in Milwaukee in 2022. Deadwood can be used on any species, where ever it makes artistic sense. This is not a complicated question. It is "allowed", as there are no rules, it is art. And there are many tricks for making deadwood last longer that go beyond the use of lime-sulfur. There wood preservative, wood restorers and wood hardeners. Furniture shops are full of these products.

By the way, Superglue, the acryl cyanates are terrible for "hardening wood". They have a tendency to fog and become milky white a few years after application. There are better products. Read F. Jeker and others to find out.
 

BobbyLane

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Ya'all are over thinking it. Bonsai is an art. There are no rules in art. Sure, one can spout "guidelines", which are used when inspiration is lacking. Forget the rules. If the deadwood looks good, use it in your design. Even back in the 1960's Mary Madison and others were collecting Florida buttonwood with incredible old deadwood. In fact, the leaves on buttonwood are large, and they do not reduce much. Without deadwood, there is little reason to grow buttonwood. Deadwood on deciduous has been a well accepted fact since 1960's, and any whiners who think it isn't just have not looked at old show photos. They have forgotten bonsai history.

This whole discussion of "whether or not deadwood is allowed on broadleaf trees" is a dead issue, the question was answered back in the 1960's or even earlier.

If the deadwood is natural or created, as long as it "looks good" and can be incorporated into the design no problem. Use it. Broadleaf or deciduous, it doesn't matter. Key is whether it makes artistic sense. Of course there is natural nature made deadwood, there is man made deadwood, and there are trees with a mix of both. If it looks good, it does not matter.

If you start with 100 bonsai beginners, more than half the people in that group will have dropped out by the 5 year mark. Maybe 25% of the group stick with bonsai for more than 10 years, it is a rare few that make the 20 year mark and even less that make it longer. Only a very small percentage of the trees started by these people will actually get passed on to others and and exceed 25 years in cultivation. It hardly matters whether deadwood lasts longer than 20 years or not, most of the trees created won't make the 20 year mark.

Now for the rare tree that does survive more than 20 year in cultivation. There are many wood products that can help the deadwood to "hang around longer" so as to avoid the need for a "redesign" yet. I believe Mr Francois Jeker of France wrote a book on creating and preserving deadwood that goes beyond just the use of lime-sulfur. If you are willing to travel to Milwaukee Wisconsin for the June 23 thru June 26, 2022, the Milwaukee Bonsai Society is celebrating its 50th year by hosting Mr Jeker and the 2022 MABA convention. I believe there are still openings for the Francois Jeker workshops. This event was postponed from 2020, due to Covid. Francois Jeker agreed to the 2022 dates. The Milwaukee Bonsai Society website has not changed all the dates from 2020 to 2022, so don't let the mixed up years confuse you, it will happen in 2022.


I know from my house painting father, and have tried it, and it works, painting the deadwood with a coat or two of boiled linseed oil once a year will help keep old deadwood from drying out and decaying easily. The linseed oil will make the deadwood somewhat waterproof. It is a natural product, distilled from flax seed. Linseed oil is the base for Thompson's Waterseal, without the pigments and the higher price.

A similar product is to dissolve pinion pine resin in turpentine and paint it on like linseed oil. There are a number of other do it yourself ways to make deadwood waterproof, which will allow it to last MANY years longer than it would in normal conditions. These treatments will work on broadleaf deadwood just as effectively as on conifer deadwood.

So pick up the books by Francois Jeker, and come see him in Milwaukee in 2022. Deadwood can be used on any species, where ever it makes artistic sense. This is not a complicated question. It is "allowed", as there are no rules, it is art. And there are many tricks for making deadwood last longer that go beyond the use of lime-sulfur. There wood preservative, wood restorers and wood hardeners. Furniture shops are full of these products.

By the way, Superglue, the acryl cyanates are terrible for "hardening wood". They have a tendency to fog and become milky white a few years after application. There are better products. Read F. Jeker and others to find out.
good post. will likely fly over many heads.
 

Woocash

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Long lived trees will almost always have some form of deadwood. I think it’s because of the individual species ability to stave off infection from limb loss or injury that they are able to live so long. In the UK trees like oaks, field maple, hawthorn, sweet chestnut live and thrive for hundreds of years with catastrophic limb loss whereas beech and ash do ok (as in with live but not often thrive), though it is often a death knell. Silver Birch is pathetic. This also correlates with the durability of these species’ timber. If you see an old tree with loads of deadwood you could probably build your decking out of it, if there is a species conspicuous by its absence of old specimens then it’s probably best to avoid.

It’s why I’d be happy to carve the bejaysus out of an oak, hawthorn or field maple, but a birch just wouldn’t look right, plus the deadwood would need far too much attention. If it can’t go a few years without needing attention then it probably shouldn’t have deadwood.
 

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It’s really not a deciduous vs conifer thing. It’s more about the tree’s native environments, and whether deadwood is persistent in that environment.
I was about to write the exact same thing.

Look at your species in nature. If you can find examples with lots of deadwood, use it as a guide in styling your tree.

I've got an old apple tree in my front yard that is more than 50% deadwood. In fact, I'm not sure how it is even surviving. But every year it still throws out strong growth from the living parts of the tree.
 

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Long lived trees will almost always have some form of deadwood. I think it’s because of the individual species ability to stave off infection from limb loss or injury that they are able to live so long. In the UK trees like oaks, field maple, hawthorn, sweet chestnut live and thrive for hundreds of years with catastrophic limb loss whereas beech and ash do ok (as in with live but not often thrive), though it is often a death knell. Silver Birch is pathetic. This also correlates with the durability of these species’ timber. If you see an old tree with loads of deadwood you could probably build your decking out of it, if there is a species conspicuous by its absence of old specimens then it’s probably best to avoid.

It’s why I’d be happy to carve the bejaysus out of an oak, hawthorn or field maple, but a birch just wouldn’t look right, plus the deadwood would need far too much attention. If it can’t go a few years without needing attention then it probably shouldn’t have deadwood.
Your comments on birch are spot on . Here in eastern Canada home of the paper birch of canoe fame . The natives had it right . The bark is very rot resistant but the wood is not . It is very common to find a birch fallen in the forest . Looks like a complete log . But it will be a bark tube with all the wood rotted away and gone . I am sure this is what prompted the natives to use the bark
 

Frozentreehugger

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Ya'all are over thinking it. Bonsai is an art. There are no rules in art. Sure, one can spout "guidelines", which are used when inspiration is lacking. Forget the rules. If the deadwood looks good, use it in your design. Even back in the 1960's Mary Madison and others were collecting Florida buttonwood with incredible old deadwood. In fact, the leaves on buttonwood are large, and they do not reduce much. Without deadwood, there is little reason to grow buttonwood. Deadwood on deciduous has been a well accepted fact since 1960's, and any whiners who think it isn't just have not looked at old show photos. They have forgotten bonsai history.

This whole discussion of "whether or not deadwood is allowed on broadleaf trees" is a dead issue, the question was answered back in the 1960's or even earlier.

If the deadwood is natural or created, as long as it "looks good" and can be incorporated into the design no problem. Use it. Broadleaf or deciduous, it doesn't matter. Key is whether it makes artistic sense. Of course there is natural nature made deadwood, there is man made deadwood, and there are trees with a mix of both. If it looks good, it does not matter.

If you start with 100 bonsai beginners, more than half the people in that group will have dropped out by the 5 year mark. Maybe 25% of the group stick with bonsai for more than 10 years, it is a rare few that make the 20 year mark and even less that make it longer. Only a very small percentage of the trees started by these people will actually get passed on to others and and exceed 25 years in cultivation. It hardly matters whether deadwood lasts longer than 20 years or not, most of the trees created won't make the 20 year mark.

Now for the rare tree that does survive more than 20 year in cultivation. There are many wood products that can help the deadwood to "hang around longer" so as to avoid the need for a "redesign" yet. I believe Mr Francois Jeker of France wrote a book on creating and preserving deadwood that goes beyond just the use of lime-sulfur. If you are willing to travel to Milwaukee Wisconsin for the June 23 thru June 26, 2022, the Milwaukee Bonsai Society is celebrating its 50th year by hosting Mr Jeker and the 2022 MABA convention. I believe there are still openings for the Francois Jeker workshops. This event was postponed from 2020, due to Covid. Francois Jeker agreed to the 2022 dates. The Milwaukee Bonsai Society website has not changed all the dates from 2020 to 2022, so don't let the mixed up years confuse you, it will happen in 2022.


I know from my house painting father, and have tried it, and it works, painting the deadwood with a coat or two of boiled linseed oil once a year will help keep old deadwood from drying out and decaying easily. The linseed oil will make the deadwood somewhat waterproof. It is a natural product, distilled from flax seed. Linseed oil is the base for Thompson's Waterseal, without the pigments and the higher price.

A similar product is to dissolve pinion pine resin in turpentine and paint it on like linseed oil. There are a number of other do it yourself ways to make deadwood waterproof, which will allow it to last MANY years longer than it would in normal conditions. These treatments will work on broadleaf deadwood just as effectively as on conifer deadwood.

So pick up the books by Francois Jeker, and come see him in Milwaukee in 2022. Deadwood can be used on any species, where ever it makes artistic sense. This is not a complicated question. It is "allowed", as there are no rules, it is art. And there are many tricks for making deadwood last longer that go beyond the use of lime-sulfur. There wood preservative, wood restorers and wood hardeners. Furniture shops are full of these products.

By the way, Superglue, the acryl cyanates are terrible for "hardening wood". They have a tendency to fog and become milky white a few years after application. There are better products. Read F. Jeker and others to find out.
I love this Pist so much truth in it . The time in cultivation point you make . Really brings to light . How amazing the multi hundred year old trees in Japan . Are trees that have survived wars and natural disasters. Your comments on deadwood are spot on . The olives planted by the Ronan’s and still producing fruit are some of my fav
 

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I’ve found that marine epoxy does a great job of preserving deadwood, even on species that are very prone to rot. It hardens the surface to the point where the tree can heal over it. Some species have soft heartwood and begin to rot almost instantly. For this reason many do not heal well. Others don’t seem to heal no matter what you do. Either way two coats of epoxy will last for years and years preserving what’s underneath.
 

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I’ve found that marine epoxy does a great job of preserving deadwood, even on species that are very prone to rot. It hardens the surface to the point where the tree can heal over it. Some species have soft heartwood and begin to rot almost instantly. For this reason many do not heal well. Others don’t seem to heal no matter what you do. Either way two coats of epoxy will last for years and years preserving what’s underneath.
I think we are talking the same product . A 2 part clear epoxy glue also used in wood working . I have found if you thin it with paint thinner . Before applying it it soaks in to dry dead wood to a deeper layer . May need more applications . This makes it very useful for delicate small deadwood to strengthen it . More a safety precaution for accidental banging or squirrel and bird mischief Also for those that want to try products on Dead wood . I use dead branches from same species to experiment Instead of trying a product un tested on your tree
 

ABCarve

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I think we are talking the same product . A 2 part clear epoxy glue also used in wood working . I have found if you thin it with paint thinner . Before applying it it soaks in to dry dead wood to a deeper layer . May need more applications . This makes it very useful for delicate small deadwood to strengthen it . More a safety precaution for accidental banging or squirrel and bird mischief Also for those that want to try products on Dead wood . I use dead branches from same species to experiment Instead of trying a product un tested on your tree
I use West System or Total Boat from Jamestown Distribution. I don't think West is supposed to be thinned. However I do thin Total Boat with acetone up to 50%.
 

rockm

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Anyone here had a deciduous tree with deadwood that's been sealed and treated for more than 20 years?
 

ABCarve

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This is a bay laurel that I cut an extra trunk off in 2008. I had given up on it ever healing and the heartwood was really deteriorating quickly. In 2014 I carved away the rotten stuff down to solid wood and coated it with epoxy. At least now it would be solid, although look rotten. To my surprise the wound began to heal over. The photos are 2014 and 2021. A few more and I think it'll close up.IMG_1793.jpgIMG_4356.JPG
 

ABCarve

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Very very nice tree . So the dead wood is just treated with epoxy . Nothing else you don’t LS it at all . Or is there anything on it to enhance its colour .
I used artist acrylics to enhance color before applying the epoxy. After two coats the epoxy it’s too shiny so I applied LS to etch the shine off.
 
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