Wire Found at Base of Trunk

[leatherback]

a few more photos

Looks like there was one root just above the wire?
Is it worth the consideration including that in the nebari and panting it slightly deeper and at a slant? Does that increase the spread?

 

[Shibui]

It is common for new roots to emerge just above a constriction - sort of like a layer though not completely around the trunk. Whenever I've used wire to try to bend and thicken a trunk I've had new roots emerge wherever the trunk is in contact with, or even close to, the soil.
I'll endorse @leatherback proposal - if changing trunk angle allows for a better nebari or better trunk base while still allowing a good trunk line then use that root to advantage.
I also noted the inverse taper close to the roots. This root may allow that inverse taper to be hidden in the soil.
If the roots doesn't help, it will need to be removed before it adds more to the taper problem or gets bigger which will leave a large scar when removed.

 

[Dav4]

Thank you for the insight!

It’s reassuring knowing that it’s a traditional method. I’ll leave it be and let it grow over.

From my experience and perspective, it's a traditional practice only for those Asian growers mass producing JBP and grafted JWP intended to be exported to the great unwashed in the west. I think you'll be hard pressed to find a tree created this way ever exhibited in a higher level show in Japan, and fwiw, I can't say I've seen any exhibited at the NBE in Rochester.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

It’s reassuring knowing that it’s a traditional method. I’ll leave it be and let it grow over.

I know growers who will wire a seedling in one direction, then remove the wire and wire it in the other direction - focusing on areas where they want to even out the taper - and then leave the wire on the lower part of the trunk, particularly where the wire enters the soil. You actually want to use bad wiring skills, trying to be asymmetrical and having your wire loops not be parallel, so that you avoid the "barber shop pole" look.

It all depends what you are planning for your end tree. Once the wire is embedded in the deadwood, you will never know that it was ever there.

From my experience and perspective... ...I can't say I've seen any exhibited at the NBE in Rochester.

That's the whole point When done well, you will never know it was ever there. This tree is a seedling that is perhaps five or six years old. It reminds me of one of Ed Clark's trees. Double the trunk caliper and you will still have the interesting trunk line, without any hint that wire was left on the tree. I think another thing that is being left unsaid here is that sometimes if you have a fast-growing conifer with embedded wire it is more harmful to the tree to remove the wire than to leave it on. The end result is the same regardless - you will have a spiral scar that pushes bark formation. In one case the wire is left on, in another it is removed.

 

[leatherback]

But, I can see why your gerbil landed there.

An expression unknown to me. Yours? Or a common USA saying?
Wht does it mean?

 

[leatherback]

I think you'll be hard pressed to find a tree created this way ever exhibited in a higher level show in Japan

That was my thinking too.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

An expression unknown to me. Yours? Or a common USA saying?
Wht does it mean?

LOL first time I ever heard it as well I assume it refers to a hamster on an exercise wheel, who runs and runs... and eventually stops at one point(?)



But the exact phrase "gerbil landed there" is unknown to me.

 

[Dav4]

I know growers who will wire a seedling in one direction, then remove the wire and wire it in the other direction - focusing on areas where they want to even out the taper - and then leave the wire on the lower part of the trunk, particularly where the wire enters the soil. You actually want to use bad wiring skills, trying to be asymmetrical and having your wire loops not be parallel, so that you avoid the "barber shop pole" look.

It all depends what you are planning for your end tree. Once the wire is embedded in the deadwood, you will never know that it was ever there.



That's the whole point When done well, you will never know it was ever there. This tree is a seedling that is perhaps five or six years old. It reminds me of one of Ed Clark's trees. Double the trunk caliper and you will still have the interesting trunk line, without any hint that wire was left on the tree.

Do you have pictures of older trees where this technique was used to build the trunk? I'd love to see images of the finished tree/trunk along with images of the wires applied during the grow out process. My experience with this technique lies exclusively with the overpriced ugly trunked trees that I used to see occupying bench space at the bonsai nurseries I used to frequent back in the day. Fwiw, I still have 1 or 2 JBP trees from the 6 yr contest that might have had their trunk accidentally scarred by wire left on for too long. The damage/wonky trunk effect is still apparent 5-6 years after removing the wire though I suppose that effect might diminish over another decade if I were still building the trunk.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

Do you have pictures of older trees where this technique was used to build the trunk? I'd love to see images of the finished tree/trunk along with images of the wires applied during the grow out process. My experience with this technique lies exclusively with the overpriced ugly trunked trees that I used to see occupying bench space at the bonsai nurseries I used to frequent back in the day. Fwiw, I still have 1 or 2 JBP trees from the 6 yr contest that might have had their trunk accidentally scarred by wire left on for too long. The damage/wonky trunk effect is still apparent 5-6 years after removing the wire though I suppose that effect might diminish over another decade if I were still building the trunk.

The best I can do is this (from Al Keppler's blog @Smoke ):

Black Pine 075

2015 This black pine came by way of Ed Clark at Round Valley Nursery. I purchased it in 2015 as part of a workshop on pines with Ted Matson. Ted talking about the finer points of bonsai design. Lun…

bonsaial.wordpress.com

The pine in this example came from Ed Clark who grows a lot of JBP pre-bonsai and leaves the wire on. There are a lot of wire scars... but the tree is still very young.

 

[99 Mile Creek]

Looks like there was one root just above the wire?
Is it worth the consideration including that in the nebari and panting it slightly deeper and at a slant? Does that increase the spread?

It is common for new roots to emerge just above a constriction - sort of like a layer though not completely around the trunk. Whenever I've used wire to try to bend and thicken a trunk I've had new roots emerge wherever the trunk is in contact with, or even close to, the soil.
I'll endorse @leatherback proposal - if changing trunk angle allows for a better nebari or better trunk base while still allowing a good trunk line then use that root to advantage.
I also noted the inverse taper close to the roots. This root may allow that inverse taper to be hidden in the soil.
If the roots doesn't help, it will need to be removed before it adds more to the taper problem or gets bigger which will leave a large scar when removed.

I see what you mean. Great advice, as I would have styled the tree in another direction.

The best I can do is this (from Al Keppler's blog @Smoke ):

Black Pine 075

2015 This black pine came by way of Ed Clark at Round Valley Nursery. I purchased it in 2015 as part of a workshop on pines with Ted Matson. Ted talking about the finer points of bonsai design. Lun…

bonsaial.wordpress.com

The pine in this example came from Ed Clark who grows a lot of JBP pre-bonsai and leaves the wire on. There are a lot of wire scars... but the tree is still very young.

That tree developed quite nicely. Maybe an Anderson flat is in order for mine too.

An expression unknown to me. Yours? Or a common USA saying?
Wht does it mean?

I'm thinking similar to, "I can see why you came to that conclusion." But I could be wrong.

 

[oranjeaap]

... You run into all sorts of tool problems down the road.
...

I just want to add that today I blunted a saw because somebody left a steel wire garrote on a trunk of Ivy.
Dunno what's funnier, the person thinking a garrote would stop an Ivy from expanding, or me sawing in exactly that one spot on a 12ft tall Ivy.

 

[Dav4]

The best I can do is this (from Al Keppler's blog @Smoke ):

Black Pine 075

2015 This black pine came by way of Ed Clark at Round Valley Nursery. I purchased it in 2015 as part of a workshop on pines with Ted Matson. Ted talking about the finer points of bonsai design. Lun…

bonsaial.wordpress.com

The pine in this example came from Ed Clark who grows a lot of JBP pre-bonsai and leaves the wire on. There are a lot of wire scars... but the tree is still very young.

So, the wire is left to scar the trunk as it grows, but removed before being covered over by the bark?

 

[Bonsai Nut]

So, the wire is left to scar the trunk as it grows, but removed before being covered over by the bark?

I am assuming there is still wire in the trunk, but then @Smoke also runs wire on top - in between the ridges left by the earlier wire(?) Perhaps he will see this thread and comment on what exactly he does...

 

[Dav4]

I am assuming there is still wire in the trunk, but then @Smoke also runs wire on top - in between the ridges left by the earlier wire(?) Perhaps he will see this thread and comment on what exactly he does...

I think that’s a question worth clarifying if possible. Those ugly imported pine trunks could be spotted a mile away. I owned one and I know that there was wire underneath the bark of the lumpy lower trunk. The picture of the trunk in the link you sent has scars, but not nearly as obvious as those with embedded wire… I honestly would be really surprised if there’s wire underneath the bark, but I’d love to be proved wrong.

 

[Cadillactaste]

An expression unknown to me. Yours? Or a common USA saying?
Wht does it mean?

Well...kinda mine. Yet...a twist off an idiom.

Gerbil landed...way of coming to a conclusion.

Gerbil spinning on its wheel...thinking on something.

Idiom: hamster spinning on its wheel.

But Gerbils are far more agile. ... I'm no hamster. Giggling. YOU DON'T WANT INSIDE MY HEAD. LOL

LOL first time I ever heard it as well I assume it refers to a hamster on an exercise wheel, who runs and runs... and eventually stops at one point(?)

View attachment 606428

But the exact phrase "gerbil landed there" is unknown to me.

Yes...a twist off that. But...when you think...wheels turning=thinking.

Totally a me thing...I throw different twists to it. I've used it for years. Those who know me...know my love of idioms...and I'll take them and twist them about to suit me. Just a "me" thing.

 

[99 Mile Creek]

Looks like there was one root just above the wire?
Is it worth the consideration including that in the nebari and panting it slightly deeper and at a slant? Does that increase the spread?

The long, stilted root to the side went all the way to the end of the root mass. I didn't want to risk cutting it, so decided on a larger pot, gently teasing out about 10% of the roots to work with this angle.

But not the slip pot that I was going for, so I'll probably wait to style/wire next year.