Raynn’s Juniper Projects - Procumbens Nana & Pfitzeriana Aurea

[ForeverRaynning]

This will be a progression/diary thread for my two Junipers. I bought these off of ebay for what I would say is a decent enoigh price (£9.50/$12.15 each) in P9 pots - if you think its not a good deal, politely keep quiet about it, it’s the best I could do and seemed reasonable to me so I’m happy

The first to arrive was the Procumbens, the Pfitz took a wrong turn in the post so is running a bit late.

I’ll admit I was a bit worried about this one, no pictures of what the plants were like (only of large plants, almost like stock images), what size they were, and P9s are obviously small pots. So when I opened the box and saw the plant, I was relieved! Its a decent size, lots and lots of roots (needs reppotting but I’ve no soil on hand at the minute) and seems healthy.



It may still be too small to do much with, I don’t really know. The trunks thin but for the pot size its to be expected really. If I recall correctly these are pretty slow growers so it’ll take quite a while to beef the trunk up? I can’t ground grow it so will just have to up-pot, not sure what size pots we have, will be whatever the roses came in so maybe 1-2 litre? I know they tend to ‘mound’ when in small spaces so I wonder is the small pot is what's causing the vertical growth? Either that or its just from the box they were in, will see how it settles but I’d imagine if it was the box it’d have flopped more once out.

Will likely repot the Pfitz at the same time in the same size. Excited to get that one now, though the listing did say 20-30cm so I had some idea of size, of its anything like this one I’ll be chuffed!

In terms of soil when repotting, it’ll have to be whatever my dad gets for the garden, which is probably plain topsoil? I assume that will be ok. Not like they’ll be in bonsai pots or have much smaller root systems as that’ll be a good few years down the line I reckon.

Will have to remember to update when the pfitz arrives. The procumbens has joined the my seedlings outside to enjoy the uh… overcast weather and light drizzle. They’ve come from Scotland, I’m sure they’ll be used to it haha.

 

[ShadyStump]

There are a number of people on the forum from the UK, so hopefully they'll find their way here soon. They'll be able help you best.

Soil is a very important part of growing bonsai, but most trees aren't as picky as many people think. Almost any soil can work if you control your watering the right way. It's hard to account for the weather, though, so we usually like soils that drain well. Your dad's topsoil probably won't, so ask him to get you some perlite and mix ALLOT of that in to it for your trees when it's time. Research here on the forum and you'll learn more about soils than you can stand.

Right now, you would do best to find a suitable container to let your little guy grow up some for a few years. Pots and containers can influence allot about your soil choice, too.
For growing out a small tree like this you'll want something quite a bit larger than the bonsai pot it will eventually be in, but don't go huge. Too much pot for a little tree can cause problems, especially if the soil stays wet.
A nice flower pot or similar, about twice the size of what it's in now will do for a season or two.

Come fall, you can put the trees into their bigger pots, and wire some shape into them,

 

[ForeverRaynning]

Soil is a very important part of growing bonsai, but most trees aren't as picky as many people think. Almost any soil can work if you control your watering the right way. It's hard to account for the weather, though, so we usually like soils that drain well. Your dad's topsoil probably won't, so ask him to get you some perlite and mix ALLOT of that in to it for your trees when it's time. Research here on the forum and you'll learn more about soils than you can stand.

I know Bonsaify uses 80% perlite 20% coco coir for younger trees, and hear both as ingredients a lot, would that be a decent start? Coir’s easy to get in large quanitities for cheap, perlites more expensive (at least compared to the coir) so I’d have to work out what size bag to get to start with so I don’t end up with tons left over taking up space (be tempted to change the soil of as many of my trees as I can cause the rest are in pure compost thats dense and definitely holds its water so been holding off watering those, but its hard to guage). As for the ratios I’m sure I can dig around in the forum. Will have to work out how big all my pots are atm so I know at least the mimimum I’d need.

Makes it easier if I can handle it (the soil stuff) myself, wasn’t thinking it’d be that easy or relatively inexpensive a mix!

As for pot size, if the ones the roses came in are 1 gallon (I know lost roses are but shubs tend to be smaller tubs, will have to check what these are) that should give them a decent space, again, Bonsaify has a video of two junipers, one in a smaller pot and another in a 1 gallon grow bag, same age, same care, completky different sizes. Though the thought has just occured that there are different gallons if I remebmber rightly… regardless the rose pots should be a good upgrade for the junipers at least.

 

[ShadyStump]

Perlite and coco coir are very popular choices. It's often my go-to.
A thing to remember is that these and most other common substrate components for bonsai are inert, at least as far as nutrients go. You'll have to fertilize every couple of weeks to keep your trees growing.
Another option is to mix in a healthy portion of compost, or a bit of manure. That's what I tend to do.

If you haven't gallon rose pots, then go ahead and use them. No need to complicate things or make it expensive. Those nursery pots aren't ideal, but they'll sure do the job. I have many young trees in such pots. If you can cut the bottom 2/3 off to use for your pot, that's closer to the shape a mature tree will eventually be in, so would be a little better in that regard. You'll have to report more frequently as the tree grows, but that's just part of bonsai.

 

[RoadManDenDron]

Great, I'm sure you will have fun wiring and playing with these!

If it were me I would not bother repotting, especially into top soil or other largely organic mix, you can wire and shape the tree which will be much more fun than repot and let it rest!

we have a hard time keeping junipers dry in spring rain storms like we are experiencing now and also autumn and winter,

a lot of starter videos tell you to clear out growth from crotches (in between branches), and growth near the trunk, please leave these in place as they add depth to pads and will be what you cut back to in future!

 

[ShadyStump]

Seetold you another Brit would be along soon.

 

[ForeverRaynning]

If it were me I would not bother repotting, especially into top soil or other largely organic mix, you can wire and shape the tree which will be much more fun than repot and let it rest!

Main reason for repotting would be the fact it seems quite root bound, not sure how much growth it’ll achieve or how healthy it’ll be if i leave it as it is? If
I’m gentle enough with the repot and leave the roots alone as much as I can (aside from decompacting as gently as I can and possibly removing as much old substrate from them as I can) it may be possible to prune and wire this year also once its settled in a bit? Then its in a better environment to respond to the pruning, maybe. I don’t know how long it takes for them to recover after a repot. Also no idea what its potted in (has some kind of I assume bark chips on top but haven’t dug deeper to see if they persist throughout) so no idea how free draining it is (and with it being rootbound it may be even worse?)

Though wiring and pruning does sound like a nice change! I may be getting too caught up in worrying about the roots, just want to give it the best chance to survive and keep growing, the trunk is only around 5mm thick. Not sure what I’d even want it to look like, what shape or style or size.

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

Your procumbens looks like a communis juniper and I believe that's what it is.
More precisely, it is what it is.

Communis is a weird one on its own and it doesn't like bonsai work at all. Branches snap instead of bend, they respond to techniques very, very slowly, they also grow very very slowly and they die if you look at them wrong.
Best to contact the store, tell them a professional identified it and ask for a real procumbens.

You asked us to not be harsh on you, I'm not. This is a common mistake sellers make and it's not your fault. I do however want to stress that this plant might ruin the hobby for you because it does not at all behave like we're used to with junipers. Best to know that before you think you're doing something wrong.

 

[ForeverRaynning]

Your procumbens looks like a communis juniper and I believe that's what it is.
More precisely, it is what it is.

Communis is a weird one on its own and it doesn't like bonsai work at all. Branches snap instead of bend, they respond to techniques very, very slowly, they also grow very very slowly and they die if you look at them wrong.
Best to contact the store, tell them a professional identified it and ask for a real procumbens.

You asked us to not be harsh on you, I'm not. This is a common mistake sellers make and it's not your fault. I do however want to stress that this plant might ruin the hobby for you because it does not at all behave like we're used to with junipers. Best to know that before you think you're doing something wrong.

Ah. That certainly complicates things then. Do you mind me asking how you can tell? Not doubting you, just want to know what gives it away, also may come in handy when contacting the seller. (looking online, it seems procumbens has much smaller and tighted packed foliage? Is this the main giveaway?)

Don’t worry, this doesn’t come off as harsh at all, I’m grateful you mentioned it! Saves me a lot of potential stress if you’re right. Makes me wonder if they even have any actual procumbens. Hopefully the Pfitz turns out to be right.

 

[RoadManDenDron]

BTW @ForeverRaynning the national bonsai society are having their annual show this weekend sat and sun at a place called applecast farm in wigan/ near skem where they are also having an artisan market

I can gift you some starter material if you can make it along and there will be a small stall selling small trees.

 

[ForeverRaynning]

Found a supplier on the RHS list of suppliers for procumbens nana, selling 3L pots for £12.99 + £8.95 delivery, which is the cheapest I’ve seen online delivery wise, plus if its an RHS listed supplier they’ll no doubt be selling the right plant. So that’s an option I suppose.

BTW @ForeverRaynning the national bonsai society are having their annual show this weekend sat and sun at a place called applecast farm in wigan/ near skem where they are also having an artisan market

I can gift you some starter material if you can make it along and there will be a small stall selling small trees.

Oooh, thats only an half hours drive. Update - ah, my dads working in glasgow that weekend and my mum doesnt drive anywhere non-local she doesn’t know so thats sadly a no go. What a shame! Thank you for the offer though.

Apparently we have a prickly bush in the garden that makes you itcy and may have blue berries on, my dads not sure… but I bet if that is juniper its communis again, will have to have a look at some point.

 

[ForeverRaynning]

My dad found some at a nursery down near Birmingham that he says
Isn’t too bad a drive, but not on the RHS list of suppliers, but not sure how much that matters? They’re selling theirs in 2-3L pots for £12, and obviously would avoid shipping costs if I go in person. So thats yet another option, plus means I can see them in person and pick one myself.

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

Ah. That certainly complicates things then. Do you mind me asking how you can tell? Not doubting you, just want to know what gives it away, also may come in handy when contacting the seller. (looking online, it seems procumbens has much smaller and tighted packed foliage? Is this the main giveaway?)

Don’t worry, this doesn’t come off as harsh at all, I’m grateful you mentioned it! Saves me a lot of potential stress if you’re right. Makes me wonder if they even have any actual procumbens. Hopefully the Pfitz turns out to be right.

Communis, especially the Arnold variety and other garden cultivars, have opposing needles in pairs of 2. They are more feather shaped needles, whereas procumbens needles are more compact and droplet shaped: a wide base ending in a sharp tip. Procumbens also has smoother bark like all other junipers (except a few US varieties), communis bark looks like miniaturized wood.
Communis is native to the UK and I've seen them a lot in pastures all over the country, those are wild specimens and not cultivars so they look a bit different than the one you have probably.
But I've never seen procumbens make similar needles. In the picture where you show the trunk base, I'm seeing little branches with opposing needles and a lot of room in between those needles, that was the giveaway. Procumbens grows much more compact with the needles touching one another most of the times.

 

[ForeverRaynning]

Communis, especially the Arnold variety and other garden cultivars, have opposing needles in pairs of 2. They are more feather shaped needles, whereas procumbens needles are more compact and droplet shaped: a wide base ending in a sharp tip. Procumbens also has smoother bark like all other junipers (except a few US varieties), communis bark looks like miniaturized wood.
Communis is native to the UK and I've seen them a lot in pastures all over the country, those are wild specimens and not cultivars so they look a bit different than the one you have probably.
But I've never seen procumbens make similar needles. In the picture where you show the trunk base, I'm seeing little branches with opposing needles and a lot of room in between those needles, that was the giveaway. Procumbens grows much more compact with the needles touching one another most of the times.

Thank you for the thorough explanation, this makes a lot of sense. Hopefully I’ll be able to get an actual procumbens soon.

 

[Crazy Diamond]

you got to be careful with communis they really dont like repoting and agressive root work, I killed a few just like the one you have in repoting

 

[ForeverRaynning]

you got to be careful with communis they really dont like repoting and agressive root work, I killed a few just like the one you have in repoting

Yeah, think the communis may just end up in the border hedge, if it dies it dies if it lives, welcome to the hedge. Also reminds me, the seeds I have from the bonsai kit I started with are also common juniper may be best to just chuck them in the bin if the species is as much a pain in the arse as I keep reading.

Went ahead and bought myself a procumbens nana off the RHS listed supplier, my dad’s away with work a lot these next few weeks so may struggle finding an opportunity to drive down to a nursery, would rather pay delivery than risk losing out if they run out of stock (and saves dealing with potentially grouchy parents). £22 total for a 3L, from an RHS-listed supplier sounds like a fair deal to me, they probably sell decent quality stock.

Pfitzer still not here, hopefully tomorrow, just hope it survives the extended journey alright (and is infact the correct plant!).

 

[ForeverRaynning]

The Pfitzeriana has arrived! It looks to be the right plant? Or at least it doesn’t appear to be a common juniper. Though now having another look online, it doesnt have the same foliage, but maybe what is has now is just juvenile foliage? Don’t think I’m seeing any scale-like leaves? …hold up, comparing it to the other juniper I’m now getting worried. (this post has taken ages to write, kept getting distracted so been coming back to it) the foliage seems tighter packed than the other one at least?





Looking at the pics it seems I missed a brown tip, I snipped one off (on the left of the last picture, towards the top) but missed that other one a but lower down. Put it outside with the rest and given it a thorough watering, will see how it decides to lay now its outside upright and not confined in a box.

I think overall I’m a bit… dissapointed? The first one I was really excited about, finally something that looks more substantial than a stick in a pot, then it turned out to not be what I ordered. This one… I don’t know, maybe it just needs to settle in, I know they also go darker when in the shade so it may brighten up a bit now its not in a dark box (though we get a lot of overcast days so… maybe not)

I also have no idea what to do with it? Not sure if the mass of foliage is a bit daunting. I may just be having a low energy day and not be able to get that excited about stuff. I was looking at other peoples pfitzerianas and sabinas and such on here and I quite like the foliage shape.

 

[ForeverRaynning]

Heres them next to each other… I’ve a sinking feeling I may have 2 common junipers here? But this one seems more compact?

 

[cmu268]

I'm not entirely sure if it's a common juniper, but to me it does appear to be some kind of juniper.

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

No the second one is not a communis.
See there's almost no wood in between the two needles? And how they are feather shaped, but less flat? Almost saw-like.
Also note how the bark is shiny and reddish, as opposed to woody and darker brown?

This year or the next, it will probably develop some adult foliage.

The bad news is that it's young. The good news is that it's bushy and vigorous! I managed to grow a plant this size to about a two centimeter thick trunk in three years in the ground.

In my guy_wires collection thread somewhere on this forum, I did a styling of a pfitzer this winter. @Hartinez is also pretty good with them! Do check out his threads!