Patina on American Pots

[Smoke]

Interesting... to me this is definitely strange. It contradicts what Peter Tea has taught and also what I have seen with my own eyes.

If you have a chance I would love to see some of your pots that have more patina on the inside than the outside.

Here are a couple of my unglazed pots that pretty clearly show how the patina buildup stops below the soil line inside the pot.

In this post, the pots are covered with what I call fertilizer runoff buildup. I can get that kind of look each year with the organic fertilizer I use.

Do you consider this desirable, since it is easily done in a short amount of time?

 

[amkhalid]

In this post, the pots are covered with what I call fertilizer runoff buildup. I can get that kind of look each year with the organic fertilizer I use.

Do you consider this desirable, since it is easily done in a short amount of time?

Call it what you want, but the rest of the bonsai world calls it patina. And I can assure you this cannot be reproduced in anywhere close to one year.

Both of these pots were bought from a nursery where they were in constant use for conservatively two decades, and only organic fertilizer was used. They were never scrubbed or washed. This patina can only be removed with a coarse brush. You can see some areas where it has been scratched off, mostly by grinding against other pots under the benches where they were stored.

Maybe your pots are just dirty. Superficial dirt is not patina. If you are convinced you can reproduce the effect shown on my pots, I would start documenting it then send the results to pot experts like Peter Tea and Peter Krebs so that their minds can be blown.

 

[Smoke]

Call it what you want, but the rest of the bonsai world calls it patina. And I can assure you this cannot be reproduced in anywhere close to one year.

Both of these pots were bought from a nursery where they were in constant use for conservatively two decades, and only organic fertilizer was used. They were never scrubbed or washed. This patina can only be removed with a coarse brush. You can see some areas where it has been scratched off, mostly by grinding against other pots under the benches where they were stored.

Maybe your pots are just dirty. Superficial dirt is not patina. If you are convinced you can reproduce the effect shown on my pots, I would start documenting it then send the results to pot experts like Peter Tea and Peter Krebs so that their minds can be blown.

Lets say that it takes two decades, ( I'll agree to disagree and I will do just what you say) wouldn't that still be a short amount of time? I thought we were talking antique pots not 20 year old pots.

 

[amkhalid]

Lets say that it takes two decades, ( I'll agree to disagree and I will do just what you say) wouldn't that still be a short amount of time? I thought we were talking antique pots not 20 year old pots.

Two decades probably is on the shorter side of time it takes to develop visible patina based on what I've learned.

I said nothing about antique pots. This thread is about patina. I asked are there any American pots with visible patina.

Both you and Sawgrass have implied that patina is easy to create. He said bury the pot, you said use organic fertilizer over one growing season to create the same effect. I'm still waiting on pics from Sawgrass, and I would like to see some of the patina your pots have developed this growing season. Your terracotta grow pots must be black by now.

 

[Smoke]

Axtually I don't fertilize trees in terracotta pots with organic fertilizer, I use shake and feed, but for the trees I do use organic fertilizer on, I do get yearly visible "patina" on the pots.

I find that outside pot patina will be much more visible if one fills his pot to the brim and then fertlizes while allowing disolved fertilizer to run over the pot and allowed to dry there.

Most of my trees are watered and the water does not flow over the pot and so does not fertilze my pots. I can see how putting the pots under a bench could become patinated over time by this runoff.

I have two pots that show signs of fertilizer patination, but not so much on the face but on the rim where I do not clean when the tree is prepared for a show. My water uis very hard and unfortunately cleaning my pots of crust removes your sought after patination.

This shohin sized pot from Gary Wood has only had the tree in it since January this year.

 

[Smoke]

This larger pot by Jim Berrett does not normaly have much patina on it due to the fact I keep the soil line low in the pot to keep the calcium off the rim.

But...a couple months ago I had the misfortune of squirrels running roughshod over a few trees. This one was one of them. They completely chewed the nebari off the tree. Roots as large as 3/8 inch. In order to save the zone and not allow it to dry out, I made an emergency preperation of soil and moss and built a collar around the trunk in hopes of roots emerging from the damaged areas. The pot was filled to the rim with soil and organic fertlizer.

That was in May. This is the results in four months. We can see vast fertilizer deposits building on the rim and the bottom turn of the pot.

 

[Smoke]

If my goal was to turn this pot brown, I could really screw it up in a year.

Fill your pots to the rim and load up the organics and you will have patina up the ass in no time.

 

[amkhalid]

Thanks for the pics.

Presumably you are showing me that orange film?

We can see vast fertilizer deposits building on the rim and the bottom turn of the pot.

I'm not sure if this counts as vast. Maybe it is the starting of patina, or a different type of patina. Sure doesn't look like the type of patina that typically sought after. I would also be curious as to how easily it comes off.

 

[amkhalid]

If my goal was to turn this pot brown, I could really screw it up in a year.

Fill your pots to the rim and load up the organics and you will have patina up the ass in no time.

I do and have been using hen manure on many of my trees for the last two years. Several of my trees that I am growing out, the surface is literally covered in chicken shit. The pots still look brand new except for some calcium.

Edit: OK I can see some of this orange stuff on one my my white glazed pots. If it is on my unglazed pots it would be invisible. This is definitely not patina, at least not yet. It comes off easily with the fingernail. It fully could be the beginning of patina though. It will probably take years for it to oxidize and take on its dark smokey colour, and fully adhere to the pot.

 

[Poink88]

I think there is a disconnect or difference on what is considered as "patina" here.

 

[amkhalid]

I think there is a disconnect or difference on what is considered as "patina" here.

I would have to say I agree.

 

[Smoke]

I would have to say I agree.

I agree also, the difference being time. Thats not what you asked though. You asked for visable patina. Now we must quible about its authenticity and its age.

So the real question is;
How long of time do fertilizer stains have to be on a pot to consider them patina?

Is twenty year old patina worth as much as 50 year old patina or 100 year old patina?

You do realize that if I don't bantor with you, this thread would have died yesterday. I don't think any one cares.

 

[Smoke]

Would you consider this pot patinated?

 

[A Random User]

Two decades probably is on the shorter side of time it takes to develop visible patina based on what I've learned.

I said nothing about antique pots. This thread is about patina. I asked are there any American pots with visible patina.

Both you and Sawgrass have implied that patina is easy to create. He said bury the pot, you said use organic fertilizer over one growing season to create the same effect. I'm still waiting on pics from Sawgrass, and I would like to see some of the patina your pots have developed this growing season. Your terracotta grow pots must be black by now.

I will post some pics for you when I get the chance... sorry extremely busy at the moment.
I have a tree I am repotting and getting ready for the ABS convention in 2 wks in NY.
I also, am a vendor selling my artwork, so I am trying to get those ready as well...
then I am in the process of design 2 new Bars / Restaurants for my day job.
So, patience Daniel son...

 

[A Random User]

Curious question though... if we are now talking about organics giving
patina to a pot... Wouldn't the organics in the ground do the same thing ???

 

[Smoke]

No, because this patina is due to the wet /dry layering buildup of organics. Atmosphere, dust and finger dirt, minerals in the water get trapped in the organics during the drying process. Layer upon layer builds up on the pot. There is also no ph changes in the atmosphere to react on the organics on the pot.

In the ground, the pot stays for the most part perpetualy wet. It has no chance of drying and definately has no perpensity to lay down layers. Also, there is no organic concentration in the exact location of the pot in the ground that is available in a fertlized pot watered and dryed everyday.

As for ground patina, I can speak of that also. This small obsidian side notch bird point is about 3/4 inch long. I dug it in 1972 from Graveyard meadow about 50 miles from Yosemite. The point is about 9000 to 3000 years old. When I was a kid, this point was known as a "heartbreaker" (missing part) and so I tried to rechip a point on it.

One can see the millinium old patina on the point and the new area I rechipped. I buried the point as a kid for 5 years trying to replicate the patina the point had at the base. After five years you can see that the point looks as fresh as the day I chipped it 39 years ago.

 

[kakejiku]

I think you should all try the Rodin method to achieve applied patina to your pots....

 

[A Random User]

Thought I would post a few links regarding the burial of objects to
obtain age and patina... since their seems to be an issue with this.
Of course I can post some more if needed.

I dig the one's where they actually describe the Chinese putting new
pots in the ground with other crap, to fill the demand for antiques !!!


http://oldglaze.blogspot.com/2009/07/how-to-authenticate-burial-artifacts.html

http://www.realrareantiques.com/identifying-fakes/

http://www.louismcwhinnie.com.au/how-to-spot-a-fake/

http://www.chinese-antique-porcelain.com/porcelain-age-faking.html

http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=19910804&slug=1298167

http://www.readdailynews.com/news-4...aud-rampant:-a-thousand-Ge-Shang-pottery.html

http://terebess.hu/english/yixing1.html

http://www.ancientbead.com/Ancient_bead_production.html

 

[Smoke]

Thought I would post a few links regarding the burial of objects to
obtain age and patina... since their seems to be an issue with this.
Of course I can post some more if needed.

I think you mean "fake" not "obtain".

I think the goal is to make real patina not fake patina. There are plenty of pots around with very old patina. The difference is easy to spot.

Since no one here can conclusively say what the patina is the point seems moot.

If you have it great. If you don't I guess that great too. I have not sleep because my pots don't have patina. Course I'm not paying $35,000.00 dollars for one either.

 

[amkhalid]

Thought I would post a few links regarding the burial of objects to
obtain age and patina... since their seems to be an issue with this.
Of course I can post some more if needed.

I dig the one's where they actually describe the Chinese putting new
pots in the ground with other crap, to fill the demand for antiques !!!


http://oldglaze.blogspot.com/2009/07/how-to-authenticate-burial-artifacts.html

http://www.realrareantiques.com/identifying-fakes/

http://www.louismcwhinnie.com.au/how-to-spot-a-fake/

http://www.chinese-antique-porcelain.com/porcelain-age-faking.html

http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=19910804&slug=1298167

http://www.readdailynews.com/news-4...aud-rampant:-a-thousand-Ge-Shang-pottery.html

http://terebess.hu/english/yixing1.html

http://www.ancientbead.com/Ancient_bead_production.html

So you were able to research and post eight articles describing fake patina, but couldn't post pictures of your own pots?

I clicked a few but am not going to spend time reading through them. I appreciate you posting them but bottom line, good looking real patina takes time to develop and there is no substitute.

Smoke, you're right this thread is going nowhere and apparently no one cares about the lack of American pots with patina. I appreciate the contributions, but lets let the poor bastard die.