Pine shedding needles.

[maroun.c]

Spring is finally here. I wanted to work on this pine since Feb but we had a colder than usual winter and it only started to get warmer this week. Unfortunately the pine didn't improve and believe I'm already loosing it. Here's how it looks now with nearly all needles brown and falling. I just got a bit larger and deeper pot to be able to hide the front horizontal root. Appreciate your advice on how aggressive I should be with the soil change? Do I taken out all the soil (believe pines hate bare rooting? Believe I shouldn't do any root work except maybe untangling a few roots. I have pumice and argile balls of small size as well as crushed ones. This is the best soil I can find here unfortunatel. Appreciate any tips and any things to watch out from as this is the first time i work with a pine.
Thanks

 

[maroun.c]

Here are the two pots I'm considering please advise which one to go with.

 

[Vance Wood]

Sorry to say it but the tree looks dead to me and I have killed enough Pines to know a dead one. Do I understand that you repotted this tree? Can you describe the soil mix? I seriously doubt that repotting can help this tree. I suspect it is suffering from root rot. The original soil looks awful wet and disturbed and I doubt you can save it. However; if the tree was mine I would treat it as a tree in trouble probably from root rot. Here is the remedy, it is not good but It might work. You have to get the tree out of the soil you have it in. You will need to wash the roots and cut out the rotten roots and then take the largest container you have displayed in your photo and put the tree in that pot with pure coarse sand. Leave it alone in semi-shade and water only when it is about dry. Give it three years.

 

[maroun.c]

I still haven't repotted it. It's still in the soil it came in which is no good. I waited till now to repot as I was afraid of the cold killing it if I repotted in winter. How about straight pumice instead of sand? Would that work?

 

[Vance Wood]

Straight Pumice would probably be OK. Good Luck! You do realize this might end in failure. Pines are difficult and once they start looking bad, it takes some real skill and luck to bring them back from the edge, once they look like they have gone over.

 

[Adair M]

It's probably too far gone. It won't hurt it to put it in pumice.

What is that black stuff on top of the soil?

 

[maroun.c]

Will just move to pumice and hope for the best although it's evident it won't make it. Weird it's in the same soil and gets same watering as the cedar next to it yet never did well where the cedar is looking healthy.
Black stuff is organic fertilizer that watchman was supposed to put for plants in soil behind. He decided to add to the bonsais. He now knows better.
It was added yesterday and am removing from all bonsais tomorrow. Don't think it caused any damage.

 

[Vance Wood]

Will just move to pumice and hope for the best although it's evident it won't make it. Weird it's in the same soil and gets same watering as the cedar next to it yet never did well where the cedar is looking healthy.
Black stuff is organic fertilizer that watchman was supposed to put for plants in soil behind. He decided to add to the bonsais. He now knows better.
It was added yesterday and am removing from all bonsais tomorrow. Don't think it caused any damage.

Cedars and Pines are seperate animals. Depending on the type of Cedar some species of Cedar are environmentally preconditioned to accept if not thrive in swamp conditions. Most Pines are not so inclined, in fact very many Pines grow in almost desert conditions.

 

[Dav4]

Cedars and Pines are seperate animals. Depending on the type of Cedar some species of Cedar are environmentally preconditioned to accept if not thrive in swamp conditions. Most Pines are not so inclined, in fact very many Pines grow in almost desert conditions.

True cedars, from the genus Cedrus, are actually close cousins to pines, and wouldn't do well in swampy conditions...they're actually native to the Mediterranean region, the Himalayas, and North Africa, and prefer hot and dry climates. False cypress, from the Chamaecyparis genus, are more moisture loving, as is the arborvitae or northern whitecedar... That cedar looks pretty happy from here.

Maroun, your pine is dead... sorry. When you pull it from the pot, you won't find many roots, they'll all likely be black and slimy, and none of them will have the fat, white root tips that should be there in spring time.

 

[Vance Wood]

Yes Dave you are right but how many people even on the Nut have true Cedars as bonsai. Most have the Juniperus type misnomer Cedars, like the Virginia Red Cedar and The White Cedar,---there are others. You cloud the discussion by injecting the truth into the wrong end of a discussion where the truth only confuses an issue involving a lack of understanding. I don't know too many around the Nut that have Atlas, Dodora or Lebanon Cedars as bonsai. They don't grow well in our climate. However we do have a lot of people that come along that think they can grow a Pine like a swamp Cedar and it is this point I was addressing. Unless the OP is talking about Lebanon Cedar, which I doubt, your analysis is not much more than a gotcha.

 

[Dav4]

Vance, I'm confused... the OP is in Beirut, Lebanon...I'll bet dimes to dollars he's got a true Cedrus in that pot, so maybe not a gotcha?? Actually, I've seen a decent number of true cedar stock used as bonsai material... @Adair M has a very nice one.

 

[maroun.c]

My cedar is a cedrus Lebanus. They grow in Rocky areas and at higher altitudes. I doubt they'd be happy in swampy conditions. Which takes me to my next question. Am repoting both this weekend. Pine will go to straight pumice and cedar will go to pumice and argile balls mix. I have no expectations from the Pine but hope not to kill the cedrus in changing the soil as the guy I bought it from has kept it for 30 years in this type of soil. Should I keep some of this soil around the roots of take it all out and replace with better draining non organic soil?
I can also move them both to the front garden which gets much more sun would that be better one keep them in back garden where they get a couple hours of sun at midday and where I struggle a but with high humidity which makes my watering a bit more challenging as I have lost a few olive bonsais to root rot and believe it's the same for the pine.
Thanks

 

[Vance Wood]

Vance, I'm confused... the OP is in Beirut, Lebanon...I'll bet dimes to dollars he's got a true Cedrus in that pot, so maybe not a gotcha?? Actually, I've seen a decent number of true cedar stock used as bonsai material... @Adair M has a very nice one.

Apparently you are right making it even more imperative to determine what the tree is growing in understanding that the Cedar is in the same stuff? Sorry about that I came to an assumption that I should not have.

 

[maroun.c]

Both trees are in regular soil the previous owner uses successfully on thousands of trees he's got. Not defending the soil but it does drain better than other regular soils I've seen. The broken down fertilizer on it is giving it this swampy look but it's not muddy at all...
Here's a closeup of the soil without fertilizer.


And a picture of the cedrus Lebanus. Not the best bonsai but I love it. I might live in Lebanon but these are hard to find and very expensive as they are protected so am very worried about the first reply am about to do and not sure if I should change the soil 100 percent or leave some.

 

[Vance Wood]

Do not change the soil 100% on the Cedar. The only reason you do that for the pine is because it is obvious the tree is diseased, it is suffering from root rot.

 

[maroun.c]

Thanks for the info. Will repot both this afternoon and keep around 50% of Cedar soil. Am hoping pine will have a few healthy roots.

 

[Potawatomi13]

Should I keep some of this soil around the roots of take it all out and replace with better draining non organic soil?

Changing most of soil is not bad idea but should not completely bare root conifers when repotting. Hosing off roots is also bad idea.

 

[M. Frary]

I don't think it matters what happens to that pine at that point.
You could plant it in fairy dust and it's still going to be dead.

 

[petegreg]

True cedars, from the genus Cedrus, are actually close cousins to pines, and wouldn't do well in swampy conditions...they're actually native to the Mediterranean region, the Himalayas, and North Africa, and prefer hot and dry climates. False cypress, from the Chamaecyparis genus, are more moisture loving, as is the arborvitae or northern whitecedar... That cedar looks pretty happy from here.

Maroun, your pine is dead... sorry. When you pull it from the pot, you won't find many roots, they'll all likely be black and slimy, and none of them will have the fat, white root tips that should be there in spring time.

This is very true.
But when I was in Florida I was surprised hearing that some pines were used to
cultivate the swamps. It came to my mind
right now, so I looked it up and the search gives me at least two species, P. elliottii and palustris, both with long needles. 99,9 % of pines prefer drier conditions for sure.
http://floridata.com/Plants/Pinaceae/Pinus elliottii/84

 

[dirk hoorelbeke]

As i stated in one of my first posts i guess you have bought a tree that was already semi-dead in the first place. When it is winter they simply don't recover. Don't blame the care you gave but your ignorance when you purchased it. Don't give up. (but for this tree it will be the only option)