Do established bonsai guidelines stifle creativity?

[rockm]

Not joking. Have you ever been and visited?
I have been a few times, and most of the branching is nothing like the "rules"... though from a picture it appears to be.

Nope. Never been, your point it taken that photos change things, but photos can also point things up that are sometimes lost in person...

 

[Djtommy]

You're joking right? Some conform closely to them...others not...Bottom line, they all use the same design techniques that 'the rules" mostly embody. For instance, find a branch growing from inside a curve...
http://www.magiminiland.org/Days/Kokufutenb.html

Some of those trees in the link you posted have

 

[Vance Wood]

Nope. Never been, your point it taken that photos change things, but photos can also point things up that are sometimes lost in person...

I agree. When designing a tree I will photo the tree continuously to discover where I have screwed it up. I have had it happen that I will think "Wow, that looks cool.." I take a picture and discover that it ain't cool, it may not be bad but it does not look like what I think it looks like. Right there is the rub. Often we fool ourselves and cannot really see the truth in what we do. Why do you think some people have eating disorders? They starve themselves to death while looking in a mirror at a fat person.

 

[rockm]

Some of those trees in the link you posted have

which?

 

[Djtommy]

which?

For example this one

 

[rockm]

For example this one
View attachment 198178

If you're talking about the first branch on the left, that's not much of a curve...

 

[Djtommy]

So how much curve is it supposed to be then to break the rules.. I didn’t know there were rules about breaking the rules..

 

[papymandarin]

by strict applications of rules, the first branch is also too low
what i often think about all these discussions about the "rules" is that occidentals are often "more japanese than the japanese" , they are just guidelines, not requirements

 

[rockm]

by strict applications of rules, the first branch is also too low
what i often think about all these discussions about the "rules" is that occidentals are often "more japanese than the japanese" , they are just guidelines, not requirements

Well, yeah.

So how much curve is it supposed to be then to break the rules.. I didn’t know there were rules about breaking the rules..

Oh for cvrying out loud. This is how most discussions of "the rules" goes.

I am hardly saying that the trees in the show follow the rules exactly. That's pretty difficult to do and not true-- just as saying they DON'T follow the rule simply not true either.

 

[Dav4]

So how much curve is it supposed to be then to break the rules.. I didn’t know there were rules about breaking the rules..

Imagine that branch isn't there and tell me if it makes for a better image? This is an example of where the rules are merely guidelines and should be ignored for a better result.

 

[bonsaichile]

You're joking right? Some conform closely to them...others not...Bottom line, they all use the same design techniques that 'the rules" mostly embody. For instance, find a branch growing from inside a curve...
http://www.magiminiland.org/Days/Kokufutenb.html

Which is why I think it is more accurate to talk about "tradition" rather than "rules"

 

[Vance Wood]

Just remember that we have discussions like this because we have true artists in our midst and we keep trying to understand how these artists achieve the level of beauty they achieve. We also have less than stellar artists that are smart enough and observant enough to define the way these masterpiece bonsai are defined and write down the nature of these trees in form and shape. Then we take those discoveries and accept them as RULES and attempt to design trees that look like examples of these rules. I short; we copy success, we venerate success, we try to achieve this success.

Where we have problems is that we have less than stellar artists who can see success but not achieve it themselves, telling those who are seeking a way in the art how to do bonsai. In so doing and justifying themselves, they cannot bear that someone who may show some real talent do something beautiful that does not fit their narrowly defined pathways toward a success that still eludes them. In a world where the term "Thinking outside the box" is not allowed, their close adherence to a string of principles defining bonsai becomes a goal in itself, that at best produces mediocre results.

 

[brewmeister83]

Just remember that we have discussions like this because we have true artists in our midst and we keep trying to understand how these artists achieve the level of beauty they achieve. We also have less than stellar artists that are smart enough and observant enough to define the way these masterpiece bonsai are defined and write down the nature of these trees in form and shape. Then we take those discoveries and accept them as RULES and attempt to design trees that look like examples of these rules. I short; we copy success, we venerate success, we try to achieve this success.

Where we have problems is that we have less than stellar artists who can see success but not achieve it themselves, telling those who are seeking a way in the art how to do bonsai. In so doing and justifying themselves, they cannot bear that someone who may show some real talent do something beautiful that does not fit their narrowly defined pathways toward a success that still eludes them. In a world where the term "Thinking outside the box" is not allowed, their close adherence to a string of principles defining bonsai becomes a goal in itself, that at best produces mediocre results.

Exactly! That's why 100 people can buy one of those cookie cutter pines, but only 2 or 3 of them are really stellar examples and end up in a showing like Kokufu. It's those who have mastery of the rules/guidelines, or have enough mastery to bend said guidelines in an artistic way, that will get their tree recognized. I look at top notch trees to learn how to make my own top notch, I look to master level trees to learn how a guideline works, and also how and why to bend or break it. When I see a tree that looks really good, it inspires me to learn why it looks so good - and then I try to replicate that in order to learn, and ultimately adapt what I've learned to add to my "bag of tricks" I can use on future trees. Because, at the end of the day, if someone asks you a critical question about your tree, how do you want to answer?

Do you want to say something like:

"well, initially I thought the branch should go over here to follow convention, but after further consideration of the deadwood features I felt I should forgo the standard placement in order to use the foliage as a frame to highlight the deadwood, thus creating a harmonious balance between positive and negative space around the trunk and unifying the image of the tree"

or:

"Uh, I don't know... because I thought it might look pretty?"

I'd like to think all of us would want to sound like the first example.

My grandfather had a saying: "You should always reach for the stars. Even if you don't make it, you'll never end up with a handful of mud." And trust me, I will never let my trees grow in mud! And that was literally one of the first guidelines I learned!

 

[GrimLore]

Nope. Never been, your point it taken that photos change things, but photos can also point things up that are sometimes lost in person...

Bjorn Bjorholm did a two part photo series on it this year and although maybe 4 were not cookie cutter they were good plants. I said this to say they did not get a mention and that was my point earlier... tisk, tisk...

Grimmy

 

[Djtommy]

Well, yeah.

Oh for cvrying out loud. This is how most discussions of "the rules" goes.

I am hardly saying that the trees in the show follow the rules exactly. That's pretty difficult to do and not true-- just as saying they DON'T follow the rule simply not true either.

Well、exactly, and this isn’t something typical about japan. In big shows pretty much every tree somehow doesn’t follow the strict rules. Which some people on this site believe they have to to even enter a show. Simply not true.
But yes, most are just subtle differences not a big in your face difference which you do sometimes come across but not often because those it’s difficult to accomplish well.
And nearly every tree will offcourse follow some rules,

Following the bonsai styling rules is not something typical about Japanese trees in my opinion. Now what is true and what is quite necessary to be able to enter a show is a very slick canopy, like on this same tree,you can draw a line around the canopy and it will be very smooth with almost no ripple. That’s something which nearly every tree has. And this is the main difference between Japanese trees and others.
I don’t dislike the slickness but too much is too much. I do think this tree could look nicer and more natural if this was broken up just a bit more



This is also from a Japanese show
This tree I like very much, looks much more natural, many people will see this as a good tree in japan though I don’t think it would go into Kokufu , Japanese trees are not always as stiff as people think.

 

[Gene Deci]

When an artist adds a little addition to the scene of the painting outside the border it is called a “Remarque”. It is usually done on prints and adds greatly to their value. That would not be so if people didn’t think it looked cool.

So, I have this larch that I put in a small display we did for a local Seniors Expo. Just for the fun of it I added a rock which fit nicely over the back corner of the pot much like a Remarque on a painting. I was told that it “broke the rules” and, basically, that I should know better. I actually liked it.

Now, that isn’t particularly creative, I wasn’t trying to break new ground but I did break the rules. I will probably keep it, for a while at least. The question is, should I refrain from showing it that way?

 

[bonsaichile]

When an artist adds a little addition to the scene of the painting outside the border it is called a “Remarque”. It is usually done on prints and adds greatly to their value. That would not be so if people didn’t think it looked cool.

So, I have this larch that I put in a small display we did for a local Seniors Expo. Just for the fun of it I added a rock which fit nicely over the back corner of the pot much like a Remarque on a painting. I was told that it “broke the rules” and, basically, that I should know better. I actually liked it.

Now, that isn’t particularly creative, I wasn’t trying to break new ground but I did break the rules. I will probably keep it, for a while at least. The question is, should I refrain from showing it that way?

View attachment 198215View attachment 198216View attachment 198216

Those are really bad pictures. We can't see the tree

 

[atlarsenal]

We can't see the tree

We? I can see it just fine.

 

[bonsaichile]

We? I can see it just fine.

You are right! First pic didnt load in my phone! My bad. And nice tree!

 

[Vance Wood]

Those are really bad pictures. We can't see the tree

You should have politely said bite me. My tree my rules.