Are you a Parrot?

Smoke

Ignore-Amus
Messages
11,668
Reaction score
20,730
Location
Fresno, CA
USDA Zone
9
Most people here have heard about Kimura and the wizardry he performs on trees yet no one knows who the hell Hamano is.

Why?

Because Kimura feels absolutely no need to talk about the past and who he learned from. He just talks about what he does and the magic of his technique. I appreciate his pedigree but it means nothing to me as a learning tool. I work in the here and now.
 

Saddler

Chumono
Messages
697
Reaction score
909
Location
Vancouver, British Columbia
Reading this thread, all i can say is that one of my metrics for people is whether they're more bothered by what is said or how its said. If you are more bothered by someone parroting good advice than you are by another person giving crappy first hand advice, your priorites are fucked
How do you know which is which? I have heard from many that plucking spruce tips when they are about an inch long is the way to promote back-budding along with fall needle plucking. I did that for two years on a couple of my spruce. It has set me back those two years after growing whorls of buds with minimal back-budding. I think it was @Adair M that said cut back the branches later in the season to promote back budding, but he was only one person. I listened to the parrots when I should have listened to the one doing it.
 

Adair M

Pinus Envy
Messages
14,402
Reaction score
34,919
Location
NEGeorgia
USDA Zone
7a
I am reminded of a song by Carly Simon. You were/are the furthest thing on my mind when I started this. Eyore doesn’t become you. I do bonsai my way, always have. I tell about bonsai, my way always have. I post pictures to back up my claims and even when I learn them from someone else I use them, test them, and share them.

I don’t talk about bonsai professionals much. Mostly because I have never had the privledge to afford one. For me the afford part is not just the ability to pay for the service, it’s everything that comes after that. I don’t feel it’s prudent to spend thousands of dollars to work with a professional and continue working on 30.00 material. Yet I know many that do, and the trees look like it as well

There is one thing I do like about professionals and I have seen most of them in the world in person. They don’t talk about who they learned from or parrot what they learned... they SHOW you what they learned. That’s what I’m talking about.... not you.

A list of who I have worked with, in actual workshops.
Walter Pall
Kunio Kobayashi
Shinji Suzuki
Peter Warren
Ryan Neal
Marco Invernizzi
John Naka
Harry Hirao
And Masahiko Kimura

Not one of them ever made me feel like I was learning second hand information and I felt that what I was learning was tried and true on their own trees. I suspect they felt parroting information wasn’t exactly worth the money they were charging.

Simple as that.
Kimura was an apprentice before he became “The Magician”. Shinji Suzuki and Ryan Neil apprenticed under Kimura. Michael Hagedorn, Matt Reel, and Tyler Sherrard all were apprentices under Shinji Suzuki. Those three were all taught by Boon before they went to Japan to study.

Smoke, do you think Shinji simply ignores everything he was taught by Kimura? Or Ryan or Hagedorn? Sure, each guy develops his own style, the art aspect, but some things, like how to wire, are pretty much the same! When Boon teaches wiring, he uses a photograph of Kimura’s wiring as an example.

None of this stuff was created in a vacuum.

You say you’ve been to workshops with all these famous people. I’m sure you went because you wanted to learn things to employ with your bonsai. Assuming you do apply some of the things you learned, you’re trying to claim that YOU discovered all your methods of working with bonsai???? And you are calling me vain????

Look in the mirror.

I don’t claim to have invented any bonsai technique. I try to give credit to where I learned what little I know.

What it all comes down to is jealousy. You’re jealous that I can afford to travel across the country and study with someone. Jealous that I can afford to buy some decent trees. Jealous that I share what I have learned. Jealous that others appreciate that I do.

It’s too bad that you act the way you do. You are spending your time belittling others than than educating others. Beating them down rather than raising them up. At one time, you had a good reputation on this site. As you love to point out you’ve been posting on this and other sites for a long, long time. And you built quite a following! Good for you. But recently, you’re imploding. Destroying your good reputation you built over the years with sheer pettiness.

Grow up.
 

Adair M

Pinus Envy
Messages
14,402
Reaction score
34,919
Location
NEGeorgia
USDA Zone
7a
Most people here have heard about Kimura and the wizardry he performs on trees yet no one knows who the hell Hamano is.

Why?

Because Kimura feels absolutely no need to talk about the past and who he learned from. He just talks about what he does and the magic of his technique. I appreciate his pedigree but it means nothing to me as a learning tool. I work in the here and now.
Because you knew who Kimura was from his body of work. You didn’t start taking classes from him when he was an apprentice. Not even soon after he went out on his own. It wasn’t until he became famous that people wanted to learn from him. Actually, his style wa so radical, at first his work wasn’t appreciated.

Of course, this was all pre-Internet. These days, anybody can get on the Internet and espouse whatever they want to say! And develop followings! (Just Google “flat earth”! Lol!!!)

So, when I first started posting on here, many of the things I advocated were new and different than the stuff that was “common knowledge”. I was flamed pretty severely. And why not? Who was this anonymous “AdairM”? Who was he to post new techniques???

And so, I found I would get taken more seriously if I shared where I learned the information. Most people do not have access to my teacher, or any good teacher for that matter. So, I became somewhat of a Missionary to inform whoever I can on how to use better techniques to make better bonsai. Not only do I post here, I teach classes at the local bonsai shop.

It’s now reached the point where it’s become “Adair says...” rather than “Adair says Boon said...”. My trees win awards at major shows. I have many people send me PM’s asking my opinion on what to do with their trees.

If I have become a bit famous because I tell people how to improve their bonsai, well that makes me happy. I’d much rather be known as being a SoB than be famous for flashing my butt in a pink thong!
 

MichaelS

Masterpiece
Messages
2,013
Reaction score
4,734
Location
Australia
Most people do not have access to my teacher, or any good teacher for that matter. So, I became somewhat of a Missionary to inform whoever I can on how to use better techniques.
......If I have become a bit famous because I tell people how to improve their bonsai, well that makes me happy

So what exactly can you learn from your teacher apart from technique?
Once you have learned how to wire, you should abandon your teacher or find one which tells you to think for yourself which you obviously are not doing Adair. I suspect that is what is irritating Smoke - not jealousy. What most teachers actually do though, is brainwash you into doing what they do. And you in turn will brainwash others. That's why black pines still look like they do. And that's why the people you show how to improve their black pines will have trees that look just like yours. And so what is being achieved exactly? Does this make you happy?
 

Adair M

Pinus Envy
Messages
14,402
Reaction score
34,919
Location
NEGeorgia
USDA Zone
7a
So what exactly can you learn from your teacher apart from technique?
Once you have learned how to wire, you should abandon your teacher or find one which tells you to think for yourself which you obviously are not doing Adair. I suspect that is what is irritating Smoke - not jealousy. What most teachers actually do though, is brainwash you into doing what they do. And you in turn will brainwash others. That's why black pines still look like they do. And that's why the people you show how to improve their black pines will have trees that look just like yours. And so what is being achieved exactly? Does this make you happy?
MichaelS, you have no idea what I learn from my teacher. I like your Zelkova, but not your junipers. Your JWP are really pretty poor.

Just calling them as I see them.
 

Adair M

Pinus Envy
Messages
14,402
Reaction score
34,919
Location
NEGeorgia
USDA Zone
7a
MichaelS,

I chose my teacher because I like the way he styles trees. I could have chosen any number of teachers. Why on earth would I go take lessons from someone whose trees I don’t like?

Most of my posts are on technique. Not styling. Regardless of style, you need to l ow how to wire, how and when to prune, how to pot, when to fertilize, all that stuff. Once someone knows that, then they can do what they want.

You like naturalistic. Bully for you! Go for it. It’s not my thing, but that doesn’t make you right and me wrong. Or vice versa. Some like Mercedes-Benz. Some like BMWs. So what? Both require oil changes. Both should be washed. Both require tires. At the proper air pressure. Both require new brake pads every so often.

Just because you like silver BMWs doesn’t mean I have to.

I heard you have a similar reputation on the aus.bonsai forum as Smoke does here.

I’m sure you’re proud.
 

MichaelS

Masterpiece
Messages
2,013
Reaction score
4,734
Location
Australia
MichaelS,

I chose my teacher because I like the way he styles trees. I could have chosen any number of teachers. Why on earth would I go take lessons from someone whose trees I don’t like?

Most of my posts are on technique. Not styling. Regardless of style, you need to l ow how to wire, how and when to prune, how to pot, when to fertilize, all that stuff. Once someone knows that, then they can do what they want.

You like naturalistic. Bully for you! Go for it. It’s not my thing, but that doesn’t make you right and me wrong. Or vice versa. Some like Mercedes-Benz. Some like BMWs. So what? Both require oil changes. Both should be washed. Both require tires. At the proper air pressure. Both require new brake pads every so often.

Just because you like silver BMWs doesn’t mean I have to.

I heard you have a similar reputation on the aus.bonsai forum as Smoke does here.

I’m sure you’re proud.


Oh stop being so insecure Adair. What I'm saying is that the whole teacher student thing you bang on about is over-rated.

Most of my posts are on technique. Not styling.

What can I say?
 

Adair M

Pinus Envy
Messages
14,402
Reaction score
34,919
Location
NEGeorgia
USDA Zone
7a
What I'm saying is that the whole teacher student thing you bang on about is over-rated.
Oh, ok. I guess all the apprentices in Japan can go home now. MichaelS as determined that there’s no value in studying with someone who’s really, really good at something.

You might as well send letters to all the colleges and Universities that they should shut down because they create teacher-student relationships, and knowledge is passed from one to another!

Geez.
 

MichaelS

Masterpiece
Messages
2,013
Reaction score
4,734
Location
Australia
Oh, ok. I guess all the apprentices in Japan can go home now. MichaelS as determined that there’s no value in studying with someone who’s really, really good at something.

You might as well send letters to all the colleges and Universities that they should shut down because they create teacher-student relationships, and knowledge is passed from one to another!

Geez.
Another typically shallow entry from Adair. I actually said that teachers are good for one thing and one thing only. Showing you technique. But yes, learn how to wire, repot etc, in Japan if you must and then get the hell out of there. You will learn more from a walk in the forest.
Nothing to do with Universities. Bonsai is more than just theory.
 

amcoffeegirl

Masterpiece
Messages
2,772
Reaction score
4,801
Location
IOWA
USDA Zone
5b
There is so much more to learn from teachers than just wiring. I love learning from people- getting inside their brain and feeling their inspiration and examining their drive. Learning why they would cut this branch and leave that one. Watching someone hold the scissors- why do they do it that way. How to carve with a chisel or a dremel. Everything is a lesson if observed with an open mind.
I have learned tons about techniques and species I have not yet tried. The day I stop learning about growing trees in pots then I will post my tool kit on eBay and be done.
 

MichaelS

Masterpiece
Messages
2,013
Reaction score
4,734
Location
Australia
There is so much more to learn from teachers than just wiring. I love learning from people- getting inside their brain and feeling their inspiration and examining their drive. Learning why they would cut this branch and leave that one. Watching someone hold the scissors- why do they do it that way. How to carve with a chisel or a dremel. Everything is a lesson if observed with an open mind.
I have learned tons about techniques and species I have not yet tried. The day I stop learning about growing trees in pots then I will post my tool kit on eBay and be done.
Yes all good but apart from ''getting in their minds'' the other things are technique. When I say ''wire'' I mean all these things, carving, repotting, grafting, bud selection, defoliation, repotting, mossing,watering, feeding, spraying, etc etc.
Feeling their inspiration and drive? You should already have that when you go in. You won't get drive that lasts for more than 24 hours from someone else.
 

amcoffeegirl

Masterpiece
Messages
2,772
Reaction score
4,801
Location
IOWA
USDA Zone
5b
Yes all good but apart from ''getting in their minds'' the other things are technique. When I say ''wire'' I mean all these things, carving, repotting, grafting, bud selection, defoliation, repotting, mossing,watering, feeding, spraying, etc etc.
Feeling their inspiration and drive? You should already have that when you go in. You won't get drive that lasts for more than 24 hours from someone else.
Being inspired doesn't have an expiration date. Something I learned 10 years ago might still drive what I do today. Reading this forum and looking at others progressions has inspired me to try different options.

Lol.
Some swear by certain soils that will never touch my roots. Some don't wire trees in pots.
Learning from others who have trees you appreciate is really the best way to learn.
 

VAFisher

Masterpiece
Messages
2,126
Reaction score
8,244
Location
Maidens, VA
USDA Zone
7a
I don't want to speak for anyone else, but I imagine for those of us that are just working away, enjoying our trees in our own back yards, this whole thread reads kinda like blah, blah, blah. Or maybe it's Monday and I'm just surly tonight.
 

Vance Wood

Lord Mugo
Messages
14,002
Reaction score
16,916
Location
Michigan
USDA Zone
5-6
Looks like auto correct.
My phone isn't only smart,it can read my mind. Fortuitous.
I don't have a problem. I'm just not a sheep that follows along blindly.
I do this hobby by myself. I go to one bonsai show per year.
I go to that to see Vance. The trees are secondary.
Maybe I'm not serious about bonsai. I mean since I don't believe in mirai or boon maybe I'm a second rate hack.
All I do know is I do know trees as well as anyone created. My life has been dedicated to trees. Whether working at the landscape nursery/tree farm. Planting jack pines for the forest service. Line clearance. Or logging. I know trees. You don't do these jobs without learning all about trees. In order to kill ot trim a tree one must first know how it grows. Been taught growth rates. Diseases. Transplanting.
I may not have a horticultural degree. But then again I don't really need one. I learned everything I know about trees from hands on application. Not from watching videos. Not from intensives. Not from going to a club.
I'm all by myself here. No time nor desire nor money
to waste on any of those.
I'm not an expert by no means.
I don't profess to know all about bonsai.
But mainly I don't parrot things that I may or may not have heard from someone who thinks they're the shit.
I get it. You guys shucked out all of this money for these videos and intensives. You're going to try to defend your decision.
There's nothing wrong with you except you choice in friends---specifically me. Something I am grateful for.
 

Smoke

Ignore-Amus
Messages
11,668
Reaction score
20,730
Location
Fresno, CA
USDA Zone
9
Reading this forum and looking at others progressions has inspired me to try different options.
Learning from others who have trees you appreciate is really the best way to learn.
I love when you guys make my point for me.....
 

Vance Wood

Lord Mugo
Messages
14,002
Reaction score
16,916
Location
Michigan
USDA Zone
5-6
Vance, you just won the Internet with that one! Lol!!!

Has the snow melted yet?;):oops:
Yes the snow is gone, we went from winter to summer in a week. Snow one week and 90* a week later and back to 58* forecast for tonight.
 

Adair M

Pinus Envy
Messages
14,402
Reaction score
34,919
Location
NEGeorgia
USDA Zone
7a
Yes the snow is gone, we went from winter to summer in a week. Snow one week and 90* a week later and back to 58* forecast for tonight.
That’s good. Put some coins in your pockets to weigh yourself down. You don’t want the mosquitos to carry you off!

Lol!!!

I hope you’re doing well!

Adair
 
Top Bottom