White Pine Starter Advice

[Hawke84]

Never had a pine before, always gone with juniper or others, saw this in the garden centre really cheap and couldn't resist. Fairly sure it's a graft but I can still see some potential.

What's people's advice on design?

 

[0soyoung]

My advice is to learn how to grow it and keep it alive.

The basic thing is that white pines will not bud from bare wood (so infrequent as to be never). They will only pop fascicular or needle buds (from the base of the needle bundles). As the buds extend in spring and you begin to see needles, you can pinch off the end. This will, to a certain extent, induce fascicular buds. Them do nothing until summer when the sheaths around the new needles drop (c.a. Jul/Aug). New foliage is now 'hardened'. One can cut really long shoots back to 5-8 rows of fascicles (counting along the length of the stem not around). This will also tend to induce fasciculur buds. However, if you wait too long a new terminal bud will not be made and, likely, you've got a dead branch even though it will take another year to become obvious. Later in summer/early-fall, old needles will turn brown and start to drop - you can gently help this along.

I think that's right. Try it and find out. Keep in mind that what you do to one branch largely doesn't effect the others - IOW you can 'experiment' on one or two branches, say, rather that risking the whole tree. You also might not touch a branch or two just to see what happens when you do nothing and/or to have a standard to see the comparative effect of your 'experiments'.

 

[Hawke84]

Any suggestions on shape or design to work towards,? I agree with you to practice growing but I'd like to have a tough design in mind

 

[Adair M]

Well...

If you search thru the forum, you will see dozens of threads about JWP. You owe it to yourself (And anyone who has ever posted) to read as many of those as you can, and THEN ask questions!

But, I’ll give you some things to think about with THIS particular tree...

Yes, it’s a graft. You can see the scar right at the soil line. But, that doesn’t indicate where the nebari is. It could be buried under the surface! Knowing where the nebari is will guide all future styling decisions.

Your lower trunk (at least the part that’s visible) has long internodes. Pines produce branches at the internodes, in whorls. Ideally, you want the distance between the whorls to become shorter at the upper parts of the tree. You have a long internodes between the first whorl and the second whorl. Longer than from the soil to the first. That’s a problem. Ideally, you would want it to be shorter.

Now, we won’t know until you find the nebari. If the nebari is buried, it might be ok! If it’s at the surface, it will always be out of proportion.

If the nebari is at the soil level, there are two ways to fix it: one is to go with a tall tree, and completely remove all the branches at the first internode; and the second is to go with a short tree, and cut off the trunk just above the first internode, and select one of the branches there to be the new trunk, and another to be the first branch.

So, you decision will be based on whether you want a tall, slim, elegant tree, with soft curves or do you want a shorter tree with more angular, dramatic movement?

Your choice.

 

[Hawke84]

@Adair M thank you very informative post. I'm currently reading through loads of material on pines to learn about them and styling. There's some really good articles on Harry Harrington's site.

Personally my current leaning is towards shorter tree and I've already been toying with some ideas of removing the top branches. Something like this:


Literati had crossed my mind as I have a Scots pine next to it that I'm planning on that style. I can't quite picture it in that style but I've tended to lean towards smaller more dramatic designs in the past.

I may end up waiting a year before I decide on a final style and just keep it alive and thicken the trunk a bit.

I'll dig out the nebari and have a bit of a poke around tomorrow

 

[Adair M]

You can easily create that style with your tree. An improvement would be to NOT let the wires scar the lower trunk. Some will do that on purpose to make the trunk thicken faster. Unfortunately, the scars are unsightly, and will last for a VERY long time. I don’t recommend it.

 

[Hawke84]

Not much more nebari going on under the soil. Bit more but the graft scar also. I agree with you about the scaring the trunk for thickness but I may do it to hide the graft scar.

I'm 90% decided on short tree. Gives me something to work towards, always dread that first cut!

 

[0soyoung]

What about planting it so that the graft union is approximately ground level (i.e., the trunk emerges from the soil line at a slant)?

 

[Hawke84]

What about planting it so that the graft union is approximately ground level (i.e., the trunk emerges from the soil line at a slant)?

I like that, then use the lower branches to thicken the trunk then sacrifice?

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Since you have repotted the tree, or from the photo, you disturbed the root system enough that this should be counted as repotting. Do nothing other than maybe a little wire later in Autumn of 2019. You need to pot it up and then let it recover. If you do any major pruning this growing season you run the risk of loosing the tree. Japanese white pines are touchy about messing with their roots. Yes, those roots are the grafted understock species, probably JBP or Pinus nigra. But that doesn't matter, even grafted JWP are touchy about having their roots messed with. You are relatively new to the hobby, so it is best to treat this tree as ''one insult per year'' in that you can only do one major stressful activity with the tree then you must allow 12 months for recovery. SO - get it back into a pot and leave it alone other than maybe a little wire in autumn. Leave it alone now for 12 months. Seriously.

More experienced growers can get away with ignoring the ''one insult per year'' saying. If your aftercare is excellent you can get away with much more than one activity per year. But you are new, and may or may not be able to correctly interpret the signs of stress or the signs that adequate recovery has occurred. I personally have kill all but 2 of my JWP by doing too much, too quickly without enough recovery time. (more than 10 dead JWP carcasses in my mulch pile). My biggest mistake was mis-interpreting weak growth, thinking weak growth was strong growth and a sign to plow ahead. It takes experience to push a tree.

 

[Hawke84]

@Leo in N E Illinois thanks for the heads up. I really haven't disturbed the roots much looking at the nebari, just some loose top soil when lifting the tree out the top and a poke with a chopstick. I wasn't planning on doing anything until I'm set with the plan for this tree anyway but I do stick to the 1 insult rule with my other trees. But Ive only really got broadleaves.

Are for suggesting that I do a proper repot right now seeing that I have disturbed it in some better soil more freely draining then leave alone for a while to thicken etc?

 

[0soyoung]

Wire work first, then repot.
Or wire and style while out of the pot. Then root work, if any, and placing stably in a pot.

Never, never, repot and then (immediately) wire and style. One can, for example, repot in spring then wire&style the following fall/winter or thereafter.


Freshly repotted roots can easily be very seriously damaged.

Foliage (active photosynthesis) is required to make roots grow.

 

[don b]

Check out Jonas Dupuich's blog! BonsaiTonight..com He specializes in Japanese pines. He also has many blogs focused on development of pines anywhere from seedlings. to root and trunk development, to fine wiring. His instruction and insight are outstanding, and his photography is top tier.

 

[Japonicus]

Do you have a plant label or other identifier?
Record it, picture it, store it, date it, post it.
Anything to keep a reference to years down the road.
Log your activities, both digitally and by hand in a diary/log book.
Sites can crash, paper burns, storage devices can error fatally.

 

[Adair M]

Get it back in a pot. Your graft is still young and would be easy to break.

For now, just let it grow. You can PLAN on removing the center trunk, you can PLAN your future trunk line and branches, but for now, just let it grow. The time to wire is next fall. Will it be time to prune the main trunk by then? Maybe, but probably not. Let that center trunk fatten the lower trunk for a couple years.

In Japan, they put these things in the ground for a decade before digging them up! Yes, they come along and cut them back every couple years.

You have a long term project ahead of you. JWP develop very slowly.

 

[M. Frary]

Never, never, repot and then (immediately) wire and style. One can, for example, repot in spring then wire&style the following fall/winter or thereafter

I hate to disagree.
And maybe I'm wrong being this is a white pine but the one insult per year here is everything at once. Roots,wiring and repot.
But like I said,I'm working with Mugo pines, Scots pines and Jack pines.
I dont think white pines fall under this umbrella though I may be wrong. They dont seem as vigorous.

 

[0soyoung]

I hate to disagree.
And maybe I'm wrong being this is a white pine but the one insult per year here is everything at once. Roots,wiring and repot.
But like I said,I'm working with Mugo pines, Scots pines and Jack pines.
I dont think white pines fall under this umbrella though I may be wrong. They dont seem as vigorous.

JWP can do all at once. Words.
Maybe I should have said never repot and the wire and style a few days/weeks later. Do the styling first.

 

[Hawke84]

Thanks all. Sorry I should have said up front all this is just planning, and me learning, I know nothing about pines. I'm in no rush to do this, Bonsai to me is growing trees not just buying finished ones.

I like to have an image in mind and understand what the steps are up front. This will be ported up and left for a few years to thicken the trunk. I just hate to have an idea in mind, spend years growing then find out it will never work or I've missed an early step.

@Japonicus I do keep a diary of my trees and actions etc. I use Microsoft onenote which works well and is great for snaps etc.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

@M. Frary - Hey Mike, my success rate with Japanese white pine is MUCH lower than my success rate with JBP, mugo, or Jack pines. With JWP, a 25% odds of a JWP still being with me 3 years later. I am always screwing something up. I'm better than 75 % odds with the others. I even consider Jack pine easier to handle than JWP. They are touchy. Or I am completely missing the point.

 

[M. Frary]

@M. Frary - Hey Mike, my success rate with Japanese white pine is MUCH lower than my success rate with JBP, mugo, or Jack pines. With JWP, a 25% odds of a JWP still being with me 3 years later. I am always screwing something up. I'm better than 75 % odds with the others. I even consider Jack pine easier to handle than JWP. They are touchy. Or I am completely missing the point.

I dont think you're missing a thing.
They do seem to be on the delicate side.
I havent tried one yet because I dont think it will handle the cold.
Or I would have had a couple dead ones under my belt.