Orion_metalhead
Masterpiece
You can have that phrase over the silhoettes of recognizable bonsai figures.
Bjorn Bjorholm Speaks Out On Hedge Pruning
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Paradox
Marine Bonsologist
I have not seen Walter Palls trees in person so I can't speak with authority about what the results of his technique look like up close.
I can say that I have seen pictures of Walter's trees and from those, many are beautiful IMO.
I will say that I am dubious about the hedge pruning technique and I have seen what it does to the hedges in the front of my house.
I dont think I would want to use it on my bonsai
I can say that I have seen pictures of Walter's trees and from those, many are beautiful IMO.
I will say that I am dubious about the hedge pruning technique and I have seen what it does to the hedges in the front of my house.
I dont think I would want to use it on my bonsai
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
The Japanese are very traditional and poured into a mold type of people; not intending to be rude or anything like that. I have been studying bonsai for 60 some-odd years and I have read a lot from as many sources I can access. It seems that when Masahiko Kimura came along he so up-ended the traditional bonsai community that he was not accepted, or tolerated. It was the quality of his work that made them start to look at him albeit bith a very critical eye criticizing everything he does. It took some twenty or thirty years before his detractors realized that they were wrong and he was right. The Japanese bonsai we enjoy today are for the most part a modern invention, the styles exhibited today did not exist thirty yreas ago.
While much of what you say is true, Vance, it really doesn’t apply to this discussion. Kimura wasn’t/isn’t famous for his deciduous trees. Not that he can’t do them, but his forte is junipers and JWP.
Also consider this: the Japanese are very good at taking a product/idea and building upon it, perfecting it. They took over the American automobile market by making cars better and cheaper than the American ones. If there’s a better way, they’ll find it and perfect it.
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
You wrote:
Also consider this: the Japanese are very good at taking a product/idea and building upon it, perfecting it. They took over the American automobile market by making cars better and cheaper than the American ones. If there’s a better way, they’ll find it and perfect it. When it comes to deciduous trees they have a highly stylized concept toward them where dead wood is not tolerated. Walter Pall's view and style on these treesis totally un-Japanese in nature. His decidous trees are totally his own creation that might not be considered bonsai in Japan, but here we are, discussion a bonsai style that is not Japanese.
coltranem
Chumono
It seems like you are equating hedge pruning with naturalistic style trees and treating them as the same thing. Bjorn is very clear he is talking about a technique not a style. He is clear that although he prefers the traditional Japanese style many styles can be achieved from the technique he describes including the naturalistic style. In fact his criticism of hedge pruning is that it creates unnatural bulges and growth. I would think that would be undesirable for a naturalistic tree. I like Walter trees but from the videos I have seen him do he cleans up a lot of this bad growth during his winter pruning.
Joe Dupre'
Omono
Let's not forget that hedge pruning is not the only part of that technique. Hedge pruning gives you an abundance of branches, so an abundance of choices. THEN you go in and prune the branches you don't want out and style the tree. Having too many branches is a good thing. I'm of the opinion that the end product is the most important thing. How you get there is really not so important. If you can prune with a chainsaw and your trees are beautiful, then, I guess the chainsaw technique is a good one.
Cadillactaste
Neagari Gal
Not at all what I intended. It's just the first step method of the process ones have issues with. Walter Pall clearly states he goes in later to do work...as you clearly stated as well as you seen from his work.
I personally have not used it. But do not see the issues if one chooses or not. But ones have stressed it's not Japanese techniques. Well we need to understand the entire concept of naturalistic style isn't Japanese anyways. So who really cares from that direction I guess is my point. Ones who don't take that second step...then will have issues. That's all I see. Bjorn himself said if the second step is done it can be achieved. Which is exactly what Walter Pall does. I think it's a dog chasing their tale honestly. There is no wrong way IF one follows the follow clean up. That's where I stand. It's up to the one who is styling to decide which they feel comfortable with.
Mike Hennigan
Chumono
People have wedged their fingers in their ears. Thank you for pointing this out (for 4th or 5th time?!) it’s unfortunate people seem to have such trouble actually reading something and absorbing the information and then thinking about it. Like that guy who is basing his opinion on what his actual hedges look like. Whoever said that. It seems common sense to me that you wouldn’t just hedge prune and then never go in and do a clean up pruning. Walter has made this very clear that he does this at least once a year in the fall. But people just hear what they want to when it comes to this stuff. Or when it comes to bonsai in general. Gotta get those t-shirts made!
coh
Imperial Masterpiece
I don't remember seeing anyone (at least in this thread) ignoring the fact that the fall/winter "clean up" is an important aspect of the technique. Maybe I missed those posts but I think we all get it.
The question remains, though - is there any benefit to this technique other than time saving in summer? I don't have enough deciduous trees to do a test that would have any validity.
The question remains, though - is there any benefit to this technique other than time saving in summer? I don't have enough deciduous trees to do a test that would have any validity.
Paradox
Marine Bonsologist
I must have also missed that information. Ive only seen the videos of him taking a hedge pruner to his trees, never anything about followup care.
My point is that if it works for him, then it works for him and at least from the pictures Ive seen, it does work for him.
If people want to emulate Walter and hedge prune thier trees, I could care less. Its thier tree, they can do what they please.
It still isnt my prefered way to treat my own trees.
BobbyLane
Imperial Masterpiece
coh
Imperial Masterpiece
I guess when you put it that wayi think you only have to look at Walter's trees and also the trees of his students, Marija and Andria zokic to see the benefits, its a no brainer!!!!
this is obviously a wind up!
Whaa? Says who?
this tree is very nice too and apparently without hedge pruningi think you only have to look at Walter's trees and also the trees of his students, Marija and Andria zokic to see the benefits, its a no brainer!!!!
this is obviously a wind up!
Maters of technique but not necessarily masters of bonsai (my definition as I mentioned earlier)
Maybe this will explain my personal point of view.... This is getting a bit off the topic but you asked...
Check out these two needle junipers. The first one is what you would call a masters work and capable of winning Kokufu if it hasn't already. The second one would never make it there the way things are currently. I don't need to go into the details of how much work was put into the first one because you already know. However, after looking at the whole trees, take a closer look at the detail of the right side. The second tree shows me a true master work. Look at the shaggy bark at it's base. Look at the intentional roughness of the small branches and needles and then look at the polished ''hedged'' monstrosity above it. Take your time and look deeply. Restraint! Something we don't often see but which is extremely important to me and others seeking the true spirit of bonsai. If you ask yourself this simple question while placing yourself ''into'' the tree, - which one makes you feel the wind blowing and the birds singing? You gotta know when to leave things and stop over-working the tree. It is EXTREMELY difficult to do because 1, we can't help ourselves and 2, we fear the response of out peers.
Now think about the word ''master'' again........
Mike Hennigan
Chumono
You illustrate the larger problem very well. That too many people are stuck in a mode of thinking that bonsai has to be one thing and not the other thing. It can be both things, and both things can be appreciated or at the very least respected without bonsai professionals calling other bonsai professionals “lazy”, or referring to a beautiful tree as a monstrosity. I look at both those trees and I think each is beautiful in its own right. There’s no need to impress upon everyone that something must be done exactly this way or whatever. Variety is the spice of life!
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bonsaichile
Omono
Actually, I still prefer the first one, birds be damned. Just a matter of personal preference, as it is yours. And one cannot argue taste. Para gustos, colores, as they say in Spain.
Cable
Omono
coh
Imperial Masterpiece
I feel like I've seen the first tree (or a similar version of it) dozens of times at least, at bonsai exhibitions, in books, etc. The second one though is different from most bonsai, less stylized, not as manicured. That is refreshing to me.
I like both but if I was given the opportunity to choose one for my collection, I think I'd pick the second.
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