Bonsai in the USA- where is it and where is it going?

Crazy weekend.

Smoke said:

Crazy weekend.

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The Crypto is beautiful. I drool. I drool all over the keyboard

I am sorry if I have poo poo'ed all over this thread, but I get a little bent out of shape when someone with one year experience comes on the forum and is ready to change 75 years of worldclass bonsai in America cause he lives in South Carolina. From Jan to Dec there is literally two to three bonsai exhibits a month in Cali.

The pictures I just showed are not a convention, not a seminar, not an ABS hoopla, not the national exhibition in NY, not the Artisans Cup in Portland, just an everyday club show over a weekend. Pictures so close to Kokufu, you feel privlidged to have experienced them in America.

Thats why I'm Pasionate about my beliefs, and why I can back what I say with the pictures to proove it.

I hope you still write that book about loblollys and rubrums, get them looking anywhere like the pictures I posted and you will have my attention.

Since I mentioned pictures, you will also note I took all the pictures. I hope my photography added to your enjoyment. Only posted about half though...

Smoke said:

Since I mentioned pictures, you will also note I took all the pictures. I hope my photography added to your enjoyment. Only posted about half though...

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Well at least despite your truculent fervor in matriculating all to your viewpoint you still found the time to pat yourself on the back !

ed

edprocoat said:

Well at least despite your truculent fervor in matriculating all to your viewpoint you still found the time to pat yourself on the back !

ed

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Damn straight, no one else will!

Contribute and contribute and all they want to do is argue about what they don't even know about. Post up some pictures Ed, I'm all eyes?

One person said America is geographically large. Diverse.

One person is proving California is not Carolina.

I am proving the apples and oranges others may not realize.

Who remembers how many species the Chinese grew in the beginning, before using what is common? The Japanese?

How many species will we use before we even get to our common species?

We are in a stage of learning our natives. Taught to swim in water. We continue to do so. Lava is liquid, but one can not swim in it.

Americans are pretty much sissies. All might. No brains.
Germans invented the bomb that ended WWII. We just dropped it.

So.....if it wasn't for Hitler, there would be no Bonsai in America. (Oxymoron)

We are all Nazi's.

Food for thought which contains Ebola.

Consume at your own risk.

Sorce

KennedyMarx said:

More people that are interested in creating, training, maintaining bonsai would certainly encourage more nurseries to create material with bonsai image in mind. It would beat rummaging endlessly through random stock at big box stores With decent characteristics and paying big bucks for bonsai specific material from bonsai nurseries. I'm still trying to figure what native/local species around me are worth a shit to collect. we don't have any junipers or pines growing in all kinds of beaten and contorted shapes. The only collecting trip I came close to going on was to dig out some Chinese privets on private land.

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There are plenty of local species for you to collect, but you might have to drive to southern Illinois or Indiana, or get to know local land owners - American elm, rock elm, hornbeam, hophornbeam, bald cypress (yes, in Indiana), hawthorn, crabapple - but my favorite is the American hackberry. I moved from Colorado to Indiana, and found that almost no one in the Indy club collected trees. I took the initiative to find opportunities and the next spring the club had 4 collecting trips to choose from. After my latest move, I'm pretty much doing the same thing in Madison WI. Still got elm and hackberry, but now adding American larch. Just gotta decide you want to do it. For me, it's the best part of the hobby. Go have fun!

Brian

Smoke said:

I am sorry if I have poo poo'ed all over this thread, but I get a little bent out of shape when someone with one year experience comes on the forum and is ready to change 75 years of worldclass bonsai in America cause he lives in South Carolina. From Jan to Dec there is literally two to three bonsai exhibits a month in Cali.

The pictures I just showed are not a convention, not a seminar, not an ABS hoopla, not the national exhibition in NY, not the Artisans Cup in Portland, just an everyday club show over a weekend. Pictures so close to Kokufu, you feel privlidged to have experienced them in America.

Thats why I'm Pasionate about my beliefs, and why I can back what I say with the pictures to proove it.

I hope you still write that book about loblollys and rubrums, get them looking anywhere like the pictures I posted and you will have my attention.

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Well you obviously got bent out of shape because you made assumptions about me that were completely wrong then. I have been doing bonsai for closer to FIFTEEN years, not one. I was- AGAIN- not the one who started this discussion it was Owen Reich and Arthur Juror at the Bonsai expo in Asheville. I only got to hear a portion of it, but it got me thinking... I believe I gave credit to them for starting this discussion in the very first post of this thread... You can read about it here if you like:
http://www.ncarboretum.org/plan-a-visit-or-event/events-and-plant-shows/carolina-bonsai-expo/

I only say in on a portion of what they were talking about. The points I am bringing up were some of what they said and me making my own points... So again, it is not "somebody with one year's worth of experience trying to change 75 years..." This was a discussion brought up by two very accomplished American Bonsai professionals, and the parts I heard there was some concern about the direction and state of Bonsai in America, that is why they felt it was an important subject. I don't know why this sets you off Al, but your anger is clearly misdirected. I have said at least twice in this thread that living in sc Limits my view of what Bonsai in America is and how much has been accomplished. If not for people like yourself posting photos and info, I would have no idea. You have three or four shows within driving distance every month it would seem. More perhaps? I have one or two every YEAR, and I generally have to drive to another STATE just to attend those. So, yes, it is a different game out in Cali and if you think it is thriving at a sustainable level, and there is no need for change- GREAT. CONGRATULATIONS! It is certainly NOT that way here and in many other areas of the US.

So, please keep crapping all over the thread and trying to squash this discussion with your ugly comments and sideways insults, because that does so much more for the discussion than simply PARTICIPATING and sharing some of your vast experience with us. Kind of a shame as you clearly have a solid view point on the subject, by put you cannot seem to share it without nasty sarcasm and hateful comments.

FromSeed said:

I agree with this. When Ryan Neil says treat Pinus Glabra like JWP(or whatever he says about referencing native pines to japanese black, white and red), I kind of make a face. I feel as though there isn't enough confidence within the American Camp ,and so much jading from japanese influence, to break through the thought process of molding native species to fit the technique of a Japanese counterpart. It's all tied up in this notion of Japanese superiority, which may be the case. But I doubt Japan has a Spruce Pine master, or competing schools of thought on the decandle-ing of Spruce Pine.

Yes, they are both pines, but the fact they have speciated alone shows the inherent differences that need to be considered when forming a refining process for such material. I bet more specific techniques can be developed, and I bet those techniques would give better and quicker results.

my take...

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Here is the problem. It is true that many of the "masters" are like so many other so-called authorities in many fields; they are loath to, if not unable, to voice the words: "I don't know!" They invariable default to the Japanese models for reference when in fact they do not have a clue and don't want to tell you that. That's on them. But let's look at the above post. What the "F" is a Spruce Pine??? I have been growing Pines native and exoctic for over 50 years and I have never heard of a Spruce Pine. I realize some will relish the fact that they can tell me the answer but that does not address the real issue.

Before you can decide what to do with a tree you have to first be able to identify the tree in a manner acceptable and recognizable to every one involved. Many trees are known by many names depending on region and use. I had a discussion with an individual on another forum a while back about a Mugo Pine that had been grafted onto what was called a Forest Pine. This was in Europe and it took me some digging to discover the tree referred to as Forest Pine is what we know as Scots Pine. This is a real problem.

The next issue of local trees may be just that; local and of little interest or availability to people living outside its original environment. Unless the tree has so many positive traits that attract those interested in bonsai to it, the tree is unlikely to make its way into the lexicon of trees for bonsai and how best to train them. For years I made friends and enemies in my quest for information concerning Bristlecone/Foxtail Pines. Only recently has some of this information been surfacing.

There are some really good native trees that only recently have made their way into bonsai culture on a level recognizable by a majority of bonsai people from all over the country. Lodge Pole Pine, Ponderosa Pine, Limber Pine Western Hemlock, Mountain Hemlock the list is getting pretty large but still: Even with this notoriety most of these trees are unavailable to anyone unable, or unwilling to collect them or buy them from someone who does. They are not generally cultivated in the nursery trade though they may posses traits far superior to those trees commercially cultivated.

As far as developing techniques for these trees it is kind of up to the growers of those trees, to develop that information and then; if they are really serious, share that information. I have been doing that with the Mugo Pine for years, a tree that in my opinion has been seriously ignored in America.

Does anyone think that new professionals Hagedorn, Neil, Tea and Reel set up shop on the West coast by accident?

Follow the money trail. Let that be your guide.

Anytime a "professional" starts talking about more people it means only one thing. How can I make my wallet fatter.

Try to keep to the dicussion and facts Eric, thats two times you have attacked me personally for simply refutting your claims. If Bonsai is so important to you, you may wish to think about moving to California. I think this whole discussion is simpley a case, again, of haves and have nots.

A spruce pine is some tree with needles Vance! I see this all of the time where I work. New people come and don't know tree species. Pine or non pine.

Smoke said:

Does anyone think that new professionals Hagedorn, Neil, Tea and Reel set up shop on the West coast by accident?

Follow the money trail. Let that be your guide.

Anytime a "professional" starts talking about more people it means only one thing. How can I make my wallet fatter.

Try to keep to the dicussion and facts Eric, thats two times you have attacked me personally for simply refutting your claims. If Bonsai is so important to you, you may wish to think about moving to California. I think this whole discussion is simpley a case, again, of haves and have nots.

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Of course not. This is where the majority of sources for natural material can be found or where they are distributed. This is where the most people willing to spend a lot of money for material and education can be found. This is where the majority of species of trees that do well as bonsai will grow well and so on. Will it stay this way? I don't know but drought and the political environment could cause it to change. I do not rule politics out of anything that takes place on the West Coast.

Gentlemen,

see this tree, image below - Seagrape - grows in South Florida.

we have been able to get 42 leaves on it, and have figured out how to get the leaves to stay at 1/2 to 1" without defoliating.
This is going to move from the oddity tree to a main stay Bonsai with the J.B.Pine or J Maple.

Because we took the time to study the tree. Now trying for 80 leaves.

It is still at the same size and in the same pot.

This type of research is what will pull your trees into becoming classic material, and not just trying to find North American substitutes.
I know you guys can do it.

Stay tune for news on the Caribbean Pine, which is similar to your P.ellotti [ spelling ?]
Good Day
Anthony

I think what bonsai in the US in general may lack is the equivalent of a hammer-in like blacksmithing/knife/sword making communities hold. In that community it is a less formal get together / camp for a weekend and do stuff events hosted usually once a year. They tend to be hosted by a local groups or shops. Even at the national level there is a get together hosted by ABANA on a even larger more formal scale. Something like the Potomac bonsai festival may be equivalent to ABANA but not nearly on the same scale. We get together smelt rock down into iron make stuff and have a general good time. There are usually multiple people giving demo's and teaching. The attendees are encouraged to get there hands dirty learning. People show of what they have made in the last year and the whole community marks the calendar for next year. There is some selling going on at these events but it tends to be more used tools, supplies and even trading amongst practitioners. The events do cost money to attend but no way around that Tents, coal, charcoal, propane and food all cost money to put on the events. There is typically a raffle as well were people bring items and donate them to be raffled to help off set the costs as well.

In the blacksmith community you see from year to year a shift in techniques and a sharing of knowledge amongst the experts that gets flowed down at these events. That's not the case with every thing we do but there are some very primitive techniques being taught that get refined from year to year. You tend to see allot of the same faces every year and guys travel from across the country and make a circuit of the main events. Young guys turn up with projects they are working on and get help heat treating or just advice.

Maybe I just haven't herd of it or am missing it but just not the same vibe in bonsai that I see in other trade or craft communities.

I understand there are bonsai clubs around and they have regular meetings, They typically pay for one speaker at a time to come in and hold work shops. There are bonsai shows around but It doesn't feel the same to me from the out side looking in. I have never been to any club meetings in my area. I probably should show up to one some day. Bonsai also feels more commercialized to me perhaps due to that nature of buying and selling plants. Perhaps because its shows are more formal events the best of the best. But no where have I herd of a grass roots equivalent Potomac bonsai festival. Were in the black smith community for $75 there are lots of events that would teach the equivalent of a PBF in a weekend in a less formal setting. There is also a dollar number that is conducive to a younger crowd where PBF is going to cost me just that for 1 class.

I would love to see more of a grass roots type events were I can show up some weekend do something like following:
Hang out, camp , go collecting / planting or see some of the same people from year to year. Talk bonsai work on trees, learn, whatever.
Make pots and learn how someone might fire them in a back yard environment.
Learn or teach tool making of tool for example how you could make a grafting knife with simple hand tools and home products.
Tree Techniques. Something like PBF or "Bonsai Boon Intensives" covered in a weekend.
Wire annealing techniques
Pest control
Soil reuse techniques.
Show various stages of tree development
Help beginners young and old with there trees
Probably a dozen other things beginners and experts would be interested in. The web is fine for info but it is not the same as getting your hand dirty.

Ok done rambling

Smoke said:

Does anyone think that new professionals Hagedorn, Neil, Tea and Reel set up shop on the West coast by accident?

Follow the money trail. Let that be your guide.

Anytime a "professional" starts talking about more people it means only one thing. How can I make my wallet fatter.

Try to keep to the dicussion and facts Eric, thats two times you have attacked me personally for simply refutting your claims. If Bonsai is so important to you, you may wish to think about moving to California. I think this whole discussion is simpley a case, again, of haves and have nots.

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Clearly this is going sideways and a I am not sure why. Where did I attack you personally Smoke? You keep making it personal by calling me out for trying to change something I am not trying to change or implying I have no clue what I am talking about because you think I have only done this for a year, I just responded to what you yourself said- that YOU were the one getting upset because I was trying to change something? In effect I was saying the same thing you did. I have not called you names or attacked you in any way. In fact I have responded to some very curt, underhanded insults with compliments of the pictures you posted and requests for more info. That is hardly a personal attack. If you took any of the snarky comments I made in Response to your own snarky comments as an attack then I apologize.

I am keeping to the discussion, it is you- AS YOU YOURSELF SAID- who keeps getting angry for some unknown reason. You asked me to write something about local species and I did. Obviously you have been doing Bonsai in a region much better known for it and having much more people who practice it... I would ask the same of you. Can you give us some reliable care/ styling info for trees local to your area that you and others you know have had success with?

I am honestly curious, not challenging you or asking you to change anything... I am just trying to advance the discussion and get some good info in this thread- and I know from reading your posts here and your blog that you have loads of good info to provide.

So, if I voiced some frustration over the way you have gone after me in this thread instead of adding something a little more useful to the conversation then I apologize if I offended you. My point in posting all this was not to advertise my own knowledge, more to ask what people think about American bonsai, and try to start a discussion on what it means to other people here.

We obviously have a wide range of opinions, mine regarding the lack of information available on local species is only one tiny portion of the discussion. Obviously that is the part that somehow upset you. I was just pointing out something I have noticed. Personally- having had no real "teacher" or even anyone locally to work with on bonsai until recently- I had to learn most of what I know from books, websites, forums and videos. My observation from that is that most the books and information available about training techniques- the when where what and how- is centered around work on species such as JBP, JWP, JM, AND Trident Maple... Those sorts of species which are only available through nurseries and most are only available through BONSAI NURSERIES. Where as I can go out in the local forests and mountains and find a great little Virginia Pine for instance, it cannot hardly find any info on how to care for them or work on them as bonsai. That was my only point... So, if the more experienced (journeymen?) bonsai enthusiasts like yourself want to help provide some info about native species, that would be great in MY opinion. I never said peopl are not USING native species- again my point was that we seem to try to compare native species to Japanese species and say "train it like a JBP" or " train it like a JM"... When maybe we could do better with local trees if we all understood their different needs and catered our training and care to fit them instead of trying to just train them like a species whose care is already well documented. Is that somehow offensive or stupid in your eyes? I am seriously asking you because I just don't get where all this push back and negativity is coming from.

Vance Wood said:

Of course not. This is where the majority of sources for natural material can be found or where they are distributed. This is where the most people willing to spend a lot of money for material and education can be found. This is where the majority of species of trees that do well as bonsai will grow well and so on. Will it stay this way? I don't know but drought and the political environment could cause it to change. I do not rule politics out of anything that takes place on the West Coast.

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That's the point in a nutshell. Haves and have nots. The haves think things are great and the have nots want to change everything. I call this bonsai progressiveness. Maybe a pen and a phone could fix this unfairness.

Vance Wood said:

Here is the problem. It is true that many of the "masters" are like so many other so-called authorities in many fields; they are loath to, if not unable, to voice the words: "I don't know!" They invariable default to the Japanese models for reference when in fact they do not have a clue and don't want to tell you that. That's on them. But let's look at the above post. What the "F" is a Spruce Pine??? I have been growing Pines native and exoctic for over 50 years and I have never heard of a Spruce Pine. I realize some will relish the fact that they can tell me the answer but that does not address the real issue.

Before you can decide what to do with a tree you have to first be able to identify the tree in a manner acceptable and recognizable to every one involved. Many trees are known by many names depending on region and use. I had a discussion with an individual on another forum a while back about a Mugo Pine that had been grafted onto what was called a Forest Pine. This was in Europe and it took me some digging to discover the tree referred to as Forest Pine is what we know as Scots Pine. This is a real problem.

The next issue of local trees may be just that; local and of little interest or availability to people living outside its original environment. Unless the tree has so many positive traits that attract those interested in bonsai to it, the tree is unlikely to make its way into the lexicon of trees for bonsai and how best to train them. For years I made friends and enemies in my quest for information concerning Bristlecone/Foxtail Pines. Only recently has some of this information been surfacing.

There are some really good native trees that only recently have made their way into bonsai culture on a level recognizable by a majority of bonsai people from all over the country. Lodge Pole Pine, Ponderosa Pine, Limber Pine Western Hemlock, Mountain Hemlock the list is getting pretty large but still: Even with this notoriety most of these trees are unavailable to anyone unable, or unwilling to collect them or buy them from someone who does. They are not generally cultivated in the nursery trade though they may posses traits far superior to those trees commercially cultivated.

As far as developing techniques for these trees it is kind of up to the growers of those trees, to develop that information and then; if they are really serious, share that information. I have been doing that with the Mugo Pine for years, a tree that in my opinion has been seriously ignored in America.

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Thanks Vance! That is a very detailed and well thought out response! I agree with your reasoning that many of the best species are tough to find (and to keep ALIVE) in some areas... And that limits the amount of info being distributed on their care and training. Very well said!

I guess that is part of the reason I always using Rubrum and Pinus Taeda in my original examples- both grow pretty much all over the Us, and Rubrum varieties are increasingly available in nurseries and big box stores. I know there are many examples of very nice Bonsai made from Red Maples, but they seem to be almost whole ignored as an option by most. The NC Arboretum has one or two I believe... Guess I should have taken more pics this weekend. I have a few as well... And a few DOZEN seedlings now... I thinks there is potential in that species to be something we can all get our hands on and work with. Loblolly/ Teada is tremendously wide spread as well and while it has long needles, it doe seem to handle being potted well, does reduce needle length and respond to training, trunks up and "barks up" quick... Really looks a lot like JBP in many ways and AJ think could be an American Pine people ignore because it is generally a telephone looking tree with really long needles.

Anyway, thanks for a well thought out response and I really agree with your points!

Eric Group said:

I have actually begun working with Acer Rubrum primarily this year and thus far noticed a few great features for Bonsai and a few questionable ones. A positive- PROLIFIC propagation from seed... To the point of beating almost an invasive species. A tree does not become one of the most populous tree a in North America without being very easy to propagate I suppose. Some of this seems to be the timing of the seed fall. Many Maples it seems produce mature see don't he Fall, drop them. Let them sit all winter and the ones that make it might sprout the following Spring... Not Rubrum! It produces MASSIVE numbers of seeds in the Spring and they rain down thick and pop up almost overnight! Easy, EASY TO propagate from seed... I have yet to try a cutting because... Well because I have DOZENS- more than I need almost by accident now! Why make cuttings? They grow pretty fast when happy and seem to trunk up pretty quick as well. Cold hardy, almost impossible to OVER water. I don't think you could give one the dreaded root rot if you tried, they will literally grow submerged in water and be fine with it. They are pretty drought tolerant too, and the leaves come back from being too dry without many ill effects!

Some negatives- pruning does not produce as quick of a bounce back or as predictable results as JM, and it is thus harder to build nice ramification! I have JM that take about 4-5 prunings in a season and still throw 3-4 foot runners before Fall if you don't keep pruning them, Rubrum not so much... They might bounce back well from one or two cut backs, but don't respond nearly as fast or as well as JM. They can be trained to develop smaller leaves and shorter internodes, but do not get fine, twiggy branches easily.. Their growth habit is just coarse overall by comparison to trident or JM, and for that reason they really only lend themselves well to larger trees I think. Having only been working on them for a short time I do not have enough data to give advice on timing for pruning or repotting, but the repots I did this Slring were fine... The seedling were transplanted around from ground to pots or from large pots to individual smaller ones... Al year long and none missed a beat. Mid summer? Early Fall? One even got knocked out of it's pot last week by a squirrel most likely... Poor thing sat on the ground at LEAST one full day if not two before I saw it... I just stuck it back in the pot with some new dirt and have t seen any signs of stress to speak of. Not a wilting leaf... Kind of amazing actually... I have heard they throw branches over winter pretty easy, and noticed a small one I have that was in training for some years before a friend gave it to me seems to have done just that over last winter- some branches never woke up.. I am repotting it next Spring so maybe I can see if there are issues present that caused that...

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Eric, I appreciate this info on your experience with Acer Rubrum as I'm interested in working with this species as well. How do they compare with the other Maples as far as their preference for sun/shade? Do they tolerate full summer sun in SC? Or do they tend to get leaf burn like Japanese Maple?

Asheville Bonsai Expo Debate

Hello All, in an effort to clarify what happened at the Expo this past weekend, here is the general run-down of the format:

Arthur Joura and I (Owen Reich) planned a debate to share our personal views on the future of bonsai art in America based on our experiences and thoughts on the matter. It had a moderator to watch the time. Each of us were given 10 minutes for a powerpoint presentation, then each of us had another 10 minutes to respond to opening arguments. We actually changed it to two alternating 5 minute rebuttals as it was decidedly better for the discussion.

No chairs thrown or slanderous comments were made. After our points were made, the audience was given 20 minutes to pose questions and receive feed back from Arthur and I.

When I have more time, I'll try and post my presentation and possibly Arthur could post his. Not the same as being there. Will try and get my points up later today.


In an effort for clarity, my opinions are just that. In no way am I trying to shape the future of bonsai in America or affect change for personal gain. I just said what I thought would happen; almost all of it positive. After the debate ended, we shook hands with smiles and a formal dialogue between two bonsai practitioners was formally concluded. The goal here was to prompt the audience to contemplate the presented opinions and for people to draw their own conclusions. This was a starting point; not summit