justBonsai
Omono
I would be interested in how you make your fertilizer. Do you mind sharing the proportions of ingredients you use and how you ferment them?
Rape seed meal - Here's the problem
- Thread starter Anthony
- Start date
Anthony
Imperial Masterpiece
Thanks @MichaelS ,
brother-in-law [ K ] has an account at Ausbonsai, a very helpful site. Yes, I remember reading the article as well.
For next year we are taking it easy on the experiments and spending more time learning to make porous clay
spheres in quantity.
Reading on-line, came across a warning that soybean meal has to be finely mixed or it will attract flies and their
children.
Which happened with us.
Very smelly and lots of movement in the mass.
Thanks to Paul [ @63pmp ] and you for responding
Good Day
Anthony
* I can find no really positive information on the use of Compost Tea, in fact, one study by a compnay run on
compost, compost tea and normal fertiliser said the tea was not really effective.
Do you know an article that shows otherwise ?
brother-in-law [ K ] has an account at Ausbonsai, a very helpful site. Yes, I remember reading the article as well.
For next year we are taking it easy on the experiments and spending more time learning to make porous clay
spheres in quantity.
Reading on-line, came across a warning that soybean meal has to be finely mixed or it will attract flies and their
children.
Which happened with us.
Very smelly and lots of movement in the mass.
Thanks to Paul [ @63pmp ] and you for responding
Good Day
Anthony
* I can find no really positive information on the use of Compost Tea, in fact, one study by a compnay run on
compost, compost tea and normal fertiliser said the tea was not really effective.
Do you know an article that shows otherwise ?
M. Frary
Bonsai Godzilla
You people really go to extreme lengths to just fertilize some little trees.
If all of this really had to be done to grow bonsai I wouldn't be doing it.
Thank God there are easier ways.
If all of this really had to be done to grow bonsai I wouldn't be doing it.
Thank God there are easier ways.
Anthony
Imperial Masterpiece
@M.Frary,
have to agree with you. The last situation we need to create down here is a free food fest for
birds and squirrels and cats.
So if the meal cannot be used composted, then, we won't do it.
Composted attracts no animals.
Plus tea bags everywhere is very unappealing.
Secondly, what we did before worked, Just trying to refine it.
Had hoped to use compost tea as a fertiliser, but so far no real information.
However one does have to do the research.
Good Day
Anthony
have to agree with you. The last situation we need to create down here is a free food fest for
birds and squirrels and cats.
So if the meal cannot be used composted, then, we won't do it.
Composted attracts no animals.
Plus tea bags everywhere is very unappealing.
Secondly, what we did before worked, Just trying to refine it.
Had hoped to use compost tea as a fertiliser, but so far no real information.
However one does have to do the research.
Good Day
Anthony
This is the recipe I used for soybean cakes. It was the only time I did it so feel free to modify as you choose. I used only ingredients that were easily sourced from local stock feed/produce and hardware shops. I wanted a organic mix that had all the nutrient elements in it, hence the addition of mince meal and molasses. Mince meal is high in calcium and phosphate while molasses is high in potassium, and I thought the sugar would get the mix moving along quicker. The cornflour was simply to make the mix more dough like.
I mixed all ingredients in a plastic 20 litre bucket with lid.
900 g soybean meal
100g meat meal
110g blackstrap molasses
45g potassium sulphate
45 g magnesium sulphate (epsom salts)
380 ml water
75 g cornflour
2 sachets of baker's yeast
I made this mix in late spring so the temperature was warm but not hot. I would mix up the contents of bucket every day, and just let it ferment, leaving the lid on but loose to let gases out. I probably left it too long and got a bacterial infection in the mix, which was noticeable because the odour went dramatically off. Over fermenting may have also made it difficult to rewet, though I never followed up on the idea of fert cakes after this one time and didn't test the theory. When I suspected bacterial infection I put the fermented mix on trays and let dry. Hindsight, it's better to make cakes and dry on racks for quicker more even drying, pans only dry on top and take forever!!!! I also made some of the mix into a crumble type product, by drying out some of the mix on a bored and frequent chopping with a knife as it dried, when it was dry enough I put it through a mincer to make into crumble. That was a little labor intensive, but I wanted to see how it went in those plastic feeder pots
There is a big difference between fermented and composted. With fermentation you are converting vegetable matter into yeast, and feeding the yeast to the plants. When the cakes are put on the plant soil, the yeast dies and the nutrients contained within are released to feed the plants.
Hope this helps
Paul
Thanks Paul. I wil try the yeast next time.
Anthony
Imperial Masterpiece
Okay, Paul,
if you are still around, and I won't use the @, to summon you.
We have years of experience fermenting, in making fruit wines.
So to ferment oil seed press [ oil cake ] I would use a wine making set up.
Here's the question - when the fermentation is going on, how much N do you lose?
Also the N.P.K breakdowns on oil meal cakes, is that for the "green " meal cakes.
and if so, do the fermented cakes drop the value of the N ?
Composted material under a magnifying lens, is supposed to look like organic material,
leaves, etc, just finely shredded.
I believe when it goes to Humus, and the glues take over, it rounds off to irregular sphere shapes.
We observe this yearly at repotting time, since we sift the old soil for the inorganic material
to reuse.
If that is the case, all the folk who purchase oil meal cakes or powder are being cheated
with the analysis of the oil meal cakes ?
Good Day
Anthony
if you are still around, and I won't use the @, to summon you.
We have years of experience fermenting, in making fruit wines.
So to ferment oil seed press [ oil cake ] I would use a wine making set up.
Here's the question - when the fermentation is going on, how much N do you lose?
Also the N.P.K breakdowns on oil meal cakes, is that for the "green " meal cakes.
and if so, do the fermented cakes drop the value of the N ?
Composted material under a magnifying lens, is supposed to look like organic material,
leaves, etc, just finely shredded.
I believe when it goes to Humus, and the glues take over, it rounds off to irregular sphere shapes.
We observe this yearly at repotting time, since we sift the old soil for the inorganic material
to reuse.
If that is the case, all the folk who purchase oil meal cakes or powder are being cheated
with the analysis of the oil meal cakes ?
Good Day
Anthony
Hi AnthonyI dont know what the @ thing is all about. I'm not a big user of social media.
Regarding N loses in fermentation. There is very little if any. Nitrogen and carbohydrate metabolism is mostly intracellular with yeast. The yeast releases enzymes which break down larger molecules, such as amylase which breakdown starch, or proteinases which breakup proteins. But they absord the smaller molecules for their metabolism. Since yeasts are anearobic they use a different respiratory pathway that produces ethanol and carbon dioxide. Thats greatly simplyfied of course. Compared to composting, bacteria and fungi release enzymes to break larger molecules down to even smaller products such as ammonium or nitrate, but it is all done extracellular. Thats why we get nitrate leaching from compost stacks. In fermentation its a closed system the only thing that is lost is carbon dioxide. You can take the sludge from the bottom of your wine barrel and use that as your frrtlizer product as that is mostly yeast, bit sludgy though. In Aus we make vegemite with beer sludge. Full of nutrients.
Regards Paul
Regarding N loses in fermentation. There is very little if any. Nitrogen and carbohydrate metabolism is mostly intracellular with yeast. The yeast releases enzymes which break down larger molecules, such as amylase which breakdown starch, or proteinases which breakup proteins. But they absord the smaller molecules for their metabolism. Since yeasts are anearobic they use a different respiratory pathway that produces ethanol and carbon dioxide. Thats greatly simplyfied of course. Compared to composting, bacteria and fungi release enzymes to break larger molecules down to even smaller products such as ammonium or nitrate, but it is all done extracellular. Thats why we get nitrate leaching from compost stacks. In fermentation its a closed system the only thing that is lost is carbon dioxide. You can take the sludge from the bottom of your wine barrel and use that as your frrtlizer product as that is mostly yeast, bit sludgy though. In Aus we make vegemite with beer sludge. Full of nutrients.
Regards Paul
Anthony
Imperial Masterpiece
When you use this @63pmp,
it sends a message to you Paul,
And I didn't want to waste your time.
Fascinating, never applied the idea to oil meal cake. Something to look into.
So that's what vegemite is.
I wonder if that is like marmite, which the English used to eat down here on sandwiches back in the 60's.
Thanks.
By the way how do you fertilise ?
I am not sure anyone will want to eat fermentation leftovers from Jamoon -
Good Day
Anthony
it sends a message to you Paul,
And I didn't want to waste your time.
Fascinating, never applied the idea to oil meal cake. Something to look into.
So that's what vegemite is.
I wonder if that is like marmite, which the English used to eat down here on sandwiches back in the 60's.
Thanks.
By the way how do you fertilise ?
I am not sure anyone will want to eat fermentation leftovers from Jamoon -
Good Day
Anthony
M. Frary
Bonsai Godzilla
Don't be too sure Anthony,
fredman
Masterpiece
I'm a Bovril man myself
Yes marmite, promite, vegemite, all made from yeast, but taste slightly different.
Anthony,
Regarding your question about what fertilizer I use. Since I use ground water which is slightly alkaline and requires acidification treatment before use, I add soluble chemical fertilizer to my water. I use a home blend of low concentration and feed daily.
The point of composting and fermenting is to reduce the amount of carbohydrate and changing the physical structure of the material being composted while increasing the relative concentration of other elements. Soyabean meal is approximately 54% protein, but requires some breakdown of the soy bean for easier release of its nutrients.
Sorry to take so long to get back to, not easy to get on to laptop and write responses nowadays.
Regards from Aus
Paul
Anthony,
Regarding your question about what fertilizer I use. Since I use ground water which is slightly alkaline and requires acidification treatment before use, I add soluble chemical fertilizer to my water. I use a home blend of low concentration and feed daily.
The point of composting and fermenting is to reduce the amount of carbohydrate and changing the physical structure of the material being composted while increasing the relative concentration of other elements. Soyabean meal is approximately 54% protein, but requires some breakdown of the soy bean for easier release of its nutrients.
Sorry to take so long to get back to, not easy to get on to laptop and write responses nowadays.
Regards from Aus
Paul
proninyaroslav
Mame
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@MichaelS
I read your cake recipe. Do I understand correctly that after the cakes have dried (after the fermentation process), are they ready for use? Will cakes rot in a pot?
Forsoothe!
Imperial Masterpiece
Pain in the ass. Whatever makes you happy
They need to rot and the protein needs to be mineralized (amino acids to ammonium) before a plant can use it. it is done by decomposing bacteria. If it did not ''rot'' the plant would starve.
If you are talking about smell, don't use it indoors!
proninyaroslav
Mame
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Mike Corazzi
Masterpiece
I couldn't even count the gnats I got.
