2016 US National Bonsai Exhibition

[LanceMac10]

It's an exhibition, getting your tree in is the prize. It takes awhile to make a nice tree, by nature or the hand of "man"....takes nature some time to make a great one, but when it's done, "man" can't "compete"...unless your great grandpappy got a nice tree from HIS daddy!!

I'm shooting for "filler at a club show" stature!!

 

[A Random User]

I'm in the, I think its shitty category as well!
And always love hearing the justifications for why its great! Oh... its all about the trees...

Who knew someone could be so good at Bonsai, just by sitting down at the beach sippin on Pinacoladas?

 

[M. Frary]

Why don't we just hire someone to do it for them

Because then they will be morons.

 

[Nybonsai12]

If I buy a ferrari and put it in a car show, but I pay a mechanic to maintain it and I paid someone else to detail it, am I not the owner of the ferrari? If i win best in show do i send the award to Ferrari's headquarters?

I think the folks that buy a tree to own it, but pay someone else to maintain it are the kinds of folks that are playing with money that most don't have.

Coh made the comment that if he bought a painting he wouldn't leave it at someones house, which i understand. But what if you had 4 houses and only visit that one house with the painting for a month a year? You won't get to see that painting often, but does that mean it's any less special to you. Does that mean it's not yours? Does it mean it's foolish to have bought it?

I also don't think that someone who owns a tree maintained by a pro, believes that they themselves are very skilled at bonsai. I'm going to believe they think they own a beautiful tree that won an award.

 

[namnhi]

If I buy a ferrari and put it in a car show, but I pay a mechanic to maintain it and I paid someone else to detail it, am I not the owner of the ferrari? If i win best in show do i send the award to Ferrari's headquarters?

Ny - Can you collect or build a Ferrari? On the other hand, I can plant, collect, style a tree. Hope you see the different.

 

[namnhi]

Because then they will be morons.

M Frary - So I guess it is ok for us to be morons since we are older. Can't learn anymore?

 

[rockm]

Ny - Can you collect or build a Ferrari? On the other hand, I can plant, collect, style a tree. Hope you see the different.

You can also build your own car. I've got friends that do it. Most can't make a Ferrari, but they can make a decent hotrod. Are the two equal engineering wise. Nope. Would you race them side by side, probably not, but some would give it a shot. Who knows?

The car metaphor runs out of gas...However, the assumption that just because you can plant, collect and style a tree makes you superior to someone who has hired someone to help make THEIR tree better is a shaky one. Just because I can cut my own hair, doesn't make me a decent barber.

 

[Nybonsai12]

Ny - Can you collect or build a Ferrari? On the other hand, I can plant, collect, style a tree. Hope you see the different.

You may be able to plant, collect and style a tree. But it won't be an Enzo unless you have put in the time to study.

I can be taught to build a Ferrari. I don't have the time, but i'd still love to own and drive one.

The car metaphor runs out of gas....

5 points for you sir...

 

[namnhi]

You can also build your own car. I've got friends that do it. Most can't make a Ferrari, but they can make a decent hotrod. Are the two equal engineering wise. Nope. Would you race them side by side, probably not, but some would give it a shot. Who knows?

The car metaphor runs out of gas...However, the assumption that just because you can plant, collect and style a tree makes you superior to someone who has hired someone to help make THEIR tree better is a shaky one. Just because I can cut my own hair, doesn't make me a decent barber.

Rock - I never said owning a tree that style/taking care by someone else is inferior. I just don't think it is right to enter it with your name attaching to it to be judged. A tree is a tree... doesn't matter who style or who taking care of it. I don't like the idea as I see that is unfair to others that work their butt off but would never win because someone has cash. Personally I would be ashamed to call something is mine if I never touch it... even if it is an award winning tree.
I understand great trees are not style or grow by one person as we know most tree will outlive us. Am find with going to a professional to learn so you can advance your trees. Problem I am having with are the one buy trees then enter it into shows for award. Those will get zero respect from me.

 

[M. Frary]

M Frary - So I guess it is ok for us to be morons since we are older. Can't learn anymore?

Because schooling for children and bonsai are 2 different things.
One gets you through life.
One is a hobby.
It's not OK for you to be a moron.
If you would have paid attention in school maybe you wouldn't be.
If you can afford a world class tree you more than likely paid attention in school.
As Bill V. pointed out its about the trees.
How it got to its state to be considered for the national show matters not.

 

[M. Frary]

I don't like the idea as I see that is unfair to others that work their butt off but would never win because someone has cash

Accept it. It's the way of the world.
Now where is my checkbook? I got a call to make to a guy named Ryan about a tree.

 

[Paradox]

The point for me is that SOMEONE developed that tree. It doesnt matter to me whether that someone is the person that bought it or paid by the rich guy that bought it.

I do feel that there is a place for "all amateur" shows such as a club/local show or even an amateur category in a larger show.

MABS is a hybrid. There are pros and amateurs both.

Shows like the Artisans Cup or the National show need to be at a higher level IMO, but could still allow for an amateur category. The problem is that you have to rely on an honor system and hope that people won't lie. When it comes to money, that can be difficult to assure.

 

[petegreg]

Problem I am having with are the one buy trees then enter it into shows for award. Those will get zero respect from me.

I understand it that way that the award belongs to the awarded tree.

 

[Adair M]

Rock - I never said owning a tree that style/taking care by someone else is inferior. I just don't think it is right to enter it with your name attaching to it to be judged. A tree is a tree... doesn't matter who style or who taking care of it. I don't like the idea as I see that is unfair to others that work their butt off but would never win because someone has cash. Personally I would be ashamed to call something is mine if I never touch it... even if it is an award winning tree.
I understand great trees are not style or grow by one person as we know most tree will outlive us. Am find with going to a professional to learn so you can advance your trees. Problem I am having with are the one buy trees then enter it into shows for award. Those will get zero respect from me.

I seriously doubt there is anyone in the US who owns top notch bonsai who only has professionals manage their trees and they do nothing themselves. (Institutionally owned trees excluded, of course.)

However, some trees are so wonderful, unique, famous that it makes sense to have them styled and/or maintained by professionals. That said, there are hobbiests who are as equally skilled as the professionals, so in that case they would have no need to hire a pro to do the work.

Then there are the skilled hobbiests who would prefer having a professional manage a few of their trees. I know of a few people who have trees styled by different artists. They can point to one and and say "Bjorn styled that one, Boon did this one, Ryan did that one over there..."

 

[coh]

I do feel that there is a place for "all amateur" shows such as a club/local show or even an amateur category in a larger show.

MABS is a hybrid. There are pros and amateurs both.

Shows like the Artisans Cup or the National show need to be at a higher level IMO, but could still allow for an amateur category. The problem is that you have to rely on an honor system and hope that people won't lie. When it comes to money, that can be difficult to assure.

The other problem, that someone mentioned earlier, is where do you draw the line? If I take my tree to a club workshop and someone else gives me advice or even helps cut/wire, is that tree eligible? What if I've taken it to Bill's spring workshops every year for the past 5 years and he has advised, helped define the style, maybe even done some work on the tree? What if I bought a fully styled tree 10 years ago but have cared for, wired, repotted, etc, all by myself since then.

It just opens another can of worms.

 

[namnhi]

The other problem, that someone mentioned earlier, is where do you draw the line? If I take my tree to a club workshop and someone else gives me advice or even helps cut/wire, is that tree eligible? What if I've taken it to Bill's spring workshops every year for the past 5 years and he has advised, helped define the style, maybe even done some work on the tree? What if I bought a fully styled tree 10 years ago but have cared for, wired, repotted, etc, all by myself since then.

It just opens another can of worms.

All the scenarios you mentioned are acceptable to me. Again, it hard to draw the line but I think whoever enter a tree to be judged on should know. As Adair pointed out, probably in the US we probably don't have someone the own a award winning tree but never work on it. Most likely that person work with the professional on that tree.

Funny thing is all the people that I trying argue with are the one I have a lot of respect as I have seen their trees and willing to give advice. Am not always 100% agree with them but I still respect them.

 

[coh]

All the scenarios you mentioned are acceptable to me. Again, it hard to draw the line...

So, draw us a line and then we can debate it. What if I go and buy one of Ryan's $10,000 trees, and keep it here and water/trim it for a few months? How many months or years have to pass before it is acceptable in your eyes?

 

[namnhi]

So, draw us a line and then we can debate it. What if I go and buy one of Ryan's $10,000 trees, and keep it here and water/trim it for a few months? How many months or years have to pass before it is acceptable in your eyes?

Coh - My line is buy Ryan tree, have Ryan take care of it then enter into a show to be judge with someone else name on that tree.
It perfectly fine with you have the dough to by Ryan's tree then take care of it yourself such as water/trim. You have put your personal touch to it then you can call it yours. Don't put your name on a tree that all you do is writing checks. I think you get what am trying to say.

 

[coh]

Coh - My line is buy Ryan tree, have Ryan take care of it then enter into a show to be judge with someone else name on that tree.
It perfectly fine with you have the dough to by Ryan's tree then take care of it yourself such as water/trim. You have put your personal touch to it then you can call it yours. Don't put your name on a tree that all you do is writing checks. I think you get what am trying to say.

OK, thanks for clarifying your position. My opinion is that it is the tree that matters and not the name on the tag. When I go to shows I want to see the best trees, regardless of who owns them or works on them. The awards, well, if they encourage people to go to the trouble of entering the trees so the rest of us can see them, then we all win. So what if someone just bought a tree and never touched it or even saw it in person (pretty sure that has happened at some of these shows). If they won an award and got a dollar prize, that doesn't really affect me at all. Again, the rules allow for it and we all know the rules.

That's about all I have to say on the subject...

 

[rockm]

Coh - My line is buy Ryan tree, have Ryan take care of it then enter into a show to be judge with someone else name on that tree.
It perfectly fine with you have the dough to by Ryan's tree then take care of it yourself such as water/trim. You have put your personal touch to it then you can call it yours. Don't put your name on a tree that all you do is writing checks. I think you get what am trying to say.

I get what you're trying to say, but the problem is it's not an absolute. There aren't many people, if any that do that.

Sure it can be galling to see someone drop big bucks on a tree, enter it the next month in a show and walk away with a prize. That happens--not a lot--but it happens at local club shows. Professional bonsaiists in shows like the National and The Artisan's Cup, however, probably know they're NOT going to be able to simply plunk down a chunk of cash and win. They're up against some very stiff competition from top professionals and private owners alike. Cash isn't a reliable winner in such shows. Never has been in any higher end completion, from horse racing to dog shows, to NASCAR. Money MIGHT help, but at some point, skill and know-how take over (NASCAR peeps can now use THAT metaphor for "owner/operator" --you're welcome.)