bonsai barry
Omono
Awesome post, Eric. Thanks for the information; this has been an excellent post.
A few pine seeds, 6 years later.
- Thread starter Eric Schrader
- Start date
Eric Schrader
Chumono
Give it a try...I used plastic bags (like from akadama) stapled into tubes the first time I did it. I live in a very dry climate so something permeable might dry out too quickly but summer in Michigan is more humid so you'll probably be fine. I found that the longer I wait to expose the more roots I get. If you expose more quickly then you end up with fewer roots in the end.
Oh, about 10-11 years now. Took me about 3-4 years to really get up to speed though.
Yes and no. You want to let one big sacrifice branch go without messing with it. It kinda causes a snowball effect where the tree gets stronger and stronger year after year. You can trim the side branches off the sacrifice if they're shading the part of the tree that you'll be keeping. The branches that are for the final design are trimmed - but I can't say there's a real method to it. I trim them when they're getting too long to encourage back-budding and if the tree looks like it will respond well to it I'll even decandle the branches that I'm using for the design. But that decandling and trimming is not every year on every tree when they're young. In fact, for the first 3-4 years probably no trimming at all. Then start thinking about the design and how to further your goal while also balancing the vigor of the sacrifice and the finished branches.
We get a lot of wind in the winter so a couple months ago I cut the top 2-year's worth of growth off of most of the 6yo's because they kept blowing over. That may have been a mistake but I was concerned that the sacrifice branches were getting too strong compared to the finished branches anyway. It's a tradeoff, now the trunks will fatten more slowly but the lower branches will grow more vigorously.
I've thought about it but I've not been able to nail down exactly what it is about humic acid that plants like (mostly for lack of time to research it). I used to use only Miracle grow and fert cakes but since I started with RO water I've had to branch out into other fertilizers. Last year I had a rodent problem with the cakes which is when I started using liquid organics more. I don't think that there's any reason not to use humic acid - my only concern would be if it's a waste of money since bonsai is closer to hydroponics than to gardening. I'm guessing that there's not a whole lot of staying power, the liquid humic acid would likely get washed right out the bottom of the pot. Of course that's the problem with a lot of fertilizers and likely the reason that I have to fertilize so often. I also started testing the pH of my water so that I know that soil conditions are closer to ideal for nutrient uptake when I water. Some of the benefit to humic acid may just be that you are acidifying typically alkaline tap water.
Alex DeRuiter
Chumono
That's what I was thinking. Summers can be quite humid here, so this may actually work quite well. And yes, I was thinking I'd wait at least two seasons to begin exposing the roots since the growing season here are much shorter.
Three or four years seems appropriate to me. I've been growing trees for almost four years now and I finally feel like I have a decent grasp on everything. I hope I can make material as impressive as this six years down the road.
Okay, so it appears that I have the right idea in regards to pruning. Thank you for explaining it in detail. That's a shame about your trees blowing over. Were any of them significantly damaged from this? I don't have too much experience growing pines, but your idea of balancing energy after cutting the sacrifice branch is logical. I imagine this is even more important in cascade trees, but I could be wrong.
In regards to humic acid, this thread shed a little light on the subject for me. Smoke (Al) has done significant research and it seems like a pretty essential thing. Here's what he wrote in that thread:
"A little soil mechanics.
Humic acid has been used for decades in the farming trade. straight humic acid is used to condition the soil to use fertilizer more effeciently. what humates do is change the chemical composition of the electronically charged soil particles to attract rather then repel fertilizer. In a mostly or totally inorganic soil medium, such as we use in bonsai, there are no organics to help break down fertilizer. further, chemical fertilizers wash staright thru the substrate without effeciantly fertlizing the roots since the absorption of fertilizer is nill because of the particles not attracting fertilizer. The humates change the soil so it does attract fertilizer and the roots can now absorb the fertilizer as they wish instead of in a burst at watering. The large percentages of humic acid you see are for conditioning large plots of land more deeply as in with a tractor and disc."
I think you might be right about washing through, to an extent. I think that even if it does wash through quickly, some of it's got to be absorbed and utilized...at least this is my assumption.
I've been using cakes with humic acid by a company calle Gro-Power and haven't had any issues with rodents. We have squirrel feeders everywhere, so I hope that's what keeps them at bay.
Anyway, thanks again for all of your help! I may post more questions as they come to mind, but in the meantime I'm trying to find those issues of Bonsai Today so I can read up a little more on it.
Three or four years seems appropriate to me. I've been growing trees for almost four years now and I finally feel like I have a decent grasp on everything. I hope I can make material as impressive as this six years down the road.
Okay, so it appears that I have the right idea in regards to pruning. Thank you for explaining it in detail. That's a shame about your trees blowing over. Were any of them significantly damaged from this? I don't have too much experience growing pines, but your idea of balancing energy after cutting the sacrifice branch is logical. I imagine this is even more important in cascade trees, but I could be wrong.
In regards to humic acid, this thread shed a little light on the subject for me. Smoke (Al) has done significant research and it seems like a pretty essential thing. Here's what he wrote in that thread:
"A little soil mechanics.
Humic acid has been used for decades in the farming trade. straight humic acid is used to condition the soil to use fertilizer more effeciently. what humates do is change the chemical composition of the electronically charged soil particles to attract rather then repel fertilizer. In a mostly or totally inorganic soil medium, such as we use in bonsai, there are no organics to help break down fertilizer. further, chemical fertilizers wash staright thru the substrate without effeciantly fertlizing the roots since the absorption of fertilizer is nill because of the particles not attracting fertilizer. The humates change the soil so it does attract fertilizer and the roots can now absorb the fertilizer as they wish instead of in a burst at watering. The large percentages of humic acid you see are for conditioning large plots of land more deeply as in with a tractor and disc."
I think you might be right about washing through, to an extent. I think that even if it does wash through quickly, some of it's got to be absorbed and utilized...at least this is my assumption.
I've been using cakes with humic acid by a company calle Gro-Power and haven't had any issues with rodents. We have squirrel feeders everywhere, so I hope that's what keeps them at bay.
Anyway, thanks again for all of your help! I may post more questions as they come to mind, but in the meantime I'm trying to find those issues of Bonsai Today so I can read up a little more on it.
Alex DeRuiter
Chumono
Hey Eric, any update on these jewels, or are you waiting until later in the season? ;-D
Wow, they look so beautiful, i like them, feed with organic fertilizer?
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Eric Schrader
Chumono
Funny how fast a year can go by. I moved in December and I've got these young trees in "storage" because my yard here in San Francisco is much smaller than the one in Thousand Oaks. I'll try to post an update sometime in the next month, the trees are at my friends place which is about an hour drive away and I'm going there in a couple weeks.
Poink88
Imperial Masterpiece
Thanks for sharing. What a great and inspiring progression.
pwk5017
Shohin
Man, CA is beating the crap out of Pittsburgh in growth! My first batch of pines are entering their 5th growing season and are only inch diameter! I dont know if I am going to reach 2" in 1-2 years. We will see. I have grown them via seedlings cuttings and in pond baskets as well. I am contemplating planting a few in the ground, just to see what the differences are. What size are your ponds baskets? I cant seem to find anything larger than 10"x10"
Patrick
Patrick
Anthony
Imperial Masterpiece
Eric,
just to say - Thank you - very much. Interesting to see someone using the Bonsai Today information.
Good Morning.
Anthony
just to say - Thank you - very much. Interesting to see someone using the Bonsai Today information.
Good Morning.
Anthony
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
There is no way to beat an ideal climate. I used to live in Marin county, North of San Francisco. The summers were hot but we still got fog. The growing seasons went well into November and we seldom had winters that dipped below 20 degrees. Spring usually started showing it's face in February.
pwk5017
Shohin
I know Vance, not cool. I wish my season was a shade longer, both for the plants and for me! Still, as a testament to the vigor of JBP even in less than ideal climates they can pack on the growth. My trees are half the width of his thickest, but I also have two more seasons, I might get real close to catching him. I suppose its an informative comparison, because I absolutely fertilize the hell out of my pines. Eric uses organics in moderate amounts it seems. I use a heavy, heavy top coat of osmocote 14-14-14 and then miracle grow double strength once a week. I re-apply the osmocote sometime in mid-august(you need to account for how quickly they leech and break down under heavy watering regimens). I do like organics for finished trees, because the release is so controlled and steady; however, for developing plants I go chemical all day long. I will post another thread, "A few pine seeds, 4 years later" when I repot them in a week or two.
Eric Schrader
Chumono
Update
I've started going through this batch of pines to start removing the main sacrifice branches. I'll be doing one or two at a time over the next few months and removing only part of the sacrifice and then repotting into smaller containers in February.
The trees are all now 8 growing seasons old and for some of the exposed roots the time to stop the trunk growth is definitely here. Not all the trees will be cut back this year because only the ones that are meant to be smaller trees are ready.
For this one, the roots at the base closed up the space between and one of the tight turns at the top has started to swell in a way that I don't like so I removed 80% of the sacrifice branch and wired the smaller branches near the base.
I'm torn on which will be the front of the tree but at the moment it looks like this side:
The one below didn't grow very much in girth this year because I removed the top half of the sacrifice last fall and repotted it from a large pond basket into a large shallow box. I'm pretty sure it will be another 8-10 years until this is a finished tree. I'm hoping for about a 4" trunk and only have about 2.5" at the moment.
With the left branch wired and thinned and the lowest right branch removed. (it was actually touching the soil only about an inch away from the trunk so it was definitely too low, even for a short, fat tree to-be.) On the strongest top branch shown in the photo are two buds, one will be a new sacrifice and the other will be developed into the top of the tree.
Looking down from above: The future top of the tree is wired with a bit of a twist and the smaller bud is left pointing upward while the larger branch is laying flat with the future sacrifice branch and cut at the back of the top.
The front with all the branches wired. In the future the left branch will likely be much shorter but for now I'll leave the strong buds on the ends until the ones closer in are stronger. Balancing the vigor between the sacrifice branch and the finished branches is important and this is done with that in mind. I candle-cut the finish branches last year but not this year.
I've started going through this batch of pines to start removing the main sacrifice branches. I'll be doing one or two at a time over the next few months and removing only part of the sacrifice and then repotting into smaller containers in February.
The trees are all now 8 growing seasons old and for some of the exposed roots the time to stop the trunk growth is definitely here. Not all the trees will be cut back this year because only the ones that are meant to be smaller trees are ready.
For this one, the roots at the base closed up the space between and one of the tight turns at the top has started to swell in a way that I don't like so I removed 80% of the sacrifice branch and wired the smaller branches near the base.
I'm torn on which will be the front of the tree but at the moment it looks like this side:
The one below didn't grow very much in girth this year because I removed the top half of the sacrifice last fall and repotted it from a large pond basket into a large shallow box. I'm pretty sure it will be another 8-10 years until this is a finished tree. I'm hoping for about a 4" trunk and only have about 2.5" at the moment.
With the left branch wired and thinned and the lowest right branch removed. (it was actually touching the soil only about an inch away from the trunk so it was definitely too low, even for a short, fat tree to-be.) On the strongest top branch shown in the photo are two buds, one will be a new sacrifice and the other will be developed into the top of the tree.
Looking down from above: The future top of the tree is wired with a bit of a twist and the smaller bud is left pointing upward while the larger branch is laying flat with the future sacrifice branch and cut at the back of the top.
The front with all the branches wired. In the future the left branch will likely be much shorter but for now I'll leave the strong buds on the ends until the ones closer in are stronger. Balancing the vigor between the sacrifice branch and the finished branches is important and this is done with that in mind. I candle-cut the finish branches last year but not this year.
cmeg1
Imperial Masterpiece
They all are spectacular,that second one is absolutely amazing.Great job!I gave up on pines and do deciduous cause' I can just keep them in the dark in winter.You are doing exactly what I had in mind.
Eric Schrader
Chumono
Update
Another 8YO pine, this one is pictured in the original post. You can see that the roots have not increased in size much since the last photo, largely because I had already started removing the sacrifice branch a year ago. But, the lower branches are taking off nicely. All the branches were candle cut this summer to reduce needle and node size as this tree moves into the refinement stages.
First photo shows the tree before any needle pulling or cutback.
Some needles removed view from the back showing the remaining sacrifice branch section.
Sacrifice removed, leaving about a one inch stub above the branching which will be reduced later to a small jin.
Three views after additional cutback and partial wiring. The branches are still very tender so I elected to wait to wire the remaining ones rather than risk breaking them off. Next year at decandling time I'll likely trim behind some of the nodes to encourage needle buds. This will allow for a more compact branch structure.
The tree is about 8" from the soil to the top of the needles right now and the base is 3" across. I'm thinking that a small trunk section might need to be added and that tilting the top more toward the front is needed in the future.
Another 8YO pine, this one is pictured in the original post. You can see that the roots have not increased in size much since the last photo, largely because I had already started removing the sacrifice branch a year ago. But, the lower branches are taking off nicely. All the branches were candle cut this summer to reduce needle and node size as this tree moves into the refinement stages.
First photo shows the tree before any needle pulling or cutback.
Some needles removed view from the back showing the remaining sacrifice branch section.
Sacrifice removed, leaving about a one inch stub above the branching which will be reduced later to a small jin.
Three views after additional cutback and partial wiring. The branches are still very tender so I elected to wait to wire the remaining ones rather than risk breaking them off. Next year at decandling time I'll likely trim behind some of the nodes to encourage needle buds. This will allow for a more compact branch structure.
The tree is about 8" from the soil to the top of the needles right now and the base is 3" across. I'm thinking that a small trunk section might need to be added and that tilting the top more toward the front is needed in the future.
scottroxburgh
Seed
Thanks for keeping this thread updated Eric, keep them coming.
Between your threads, and Jonas' blog shohin JBP bonsai in the West can only improve!
I used the seedling cutting technique a few years ago on around 150 seedlings. After giving most away, I now have 10 exposed root and 25 shohin seedlings in the works. Thanks for the impetus to get them going.
Between your threads, and Jonas' blog shohin JBP bonsai in the West can only improve!
I used the seedling cutting technique a few years ago on around 150 seedlings. After giving most away, I now have 10 exposed root and 25 shohin seedlings in the works. Thanks for the impetus to get them going.
sikadelic
Chumono
Can somebody post a link to the seedling cutting technique? Much obliged!
Cadillactaste
Neagari Gal
I never imagined that 6 years from SEED could be so impressive. Hats off to you on your success...they are all impressive in their own right.
bonsaitodd
Seedling
sikadelic
Chumono
Thanks! I've got my reading for the rest of the night!
Eric Schrader
Chumono
Chopsticks stuck in between the roots on this one to spread them apart.
The tree above a couple years later, this one is actually from a younger batch but coming along nicely, I think it is currently 6 years old:
Removing two strong branches that are not usable for the design:
shown from above after branches removed:
The remaining branches are wired, the lower branches are too long for the ultimate design but I leave them for now to keep that portion of the tree strong until the buds that are closer have time to develop further:
The trunk is only about an inch thick but the root mass is quite nice, it will be a shohin size tree with the foliage below the top of the bend of the roots.
