Annealing Copper Wire

[Canaima]

Thank you

Idk but it's probably just as cheap to get it already done. I just ordered from here, a really good guy.

Copper Bonsai Wire | Black River Bonsai

www.blackriverbonsai.com

Thank you! Yes, good prices!

 

[Maiden69]

Mirai has copper wire as well, while the initial price is higher, their price per feet is cheaper on the heavier gauges, and they have 4 ga if needed. So if you just need certain gauges, you could buy the heavy wire from Mirai and the thinner from black river. If you can splurge, going with Mirai's set will be the "cheapest" option and you also get 10ga wire that Black River don't carry.

I have annealed some wire for my use, I buy it from wireandcableyourway.com. If you want to do your own, you can save around .60 per foot on the 4,6,and 8ga wire and between .10 and .20 per foot on 10-18ga wire vs buying it annealed. If I had a kiln I would definitely buy the wire and anneal myself as the labor would be much less than using my gas burner.

 

[Canaima]

Mirai has copper wire as well, while the initial price is higher, their price per feet is cheaper on the heavier gauges, and they have 4 ga if needed. So if you just need certain gauges, you could buy the heavy wire from Mirai and the thinner from black river. If you can splurge, going with Mirai's set will be the "cheapest" option and you also get 10ga wire that Black River don't carry.

I have annealed some wire for my use, I buy it from wireandcableyourway.com. If you want to do your own, you can save around .60 per foot on the 4,6,and 8ga wire and between .10 and .20 per foot on 10-18ga wire vs buying it annealed. If I had a kiln I would definitely buy the wire and anneal myself as the labor would be much less than using my gas burner.

Thank you so much!

 

[ShadyStump]

If I had a kiln I would definitely buy the wire and anneal myself as the labor would be much less than using my gas burner.

I'm actually experimenting with a homemade charcoal fired annealing kiln right now. Still working out how to get it to burn clean and even enough to get an even color, but I can hit the temps needed no problem.

 

[August44]

I am also experimenting with annealing copper wire. I get it from the recycle place here in town. I wrap it in coils but have not cooked any yet. Can I stack it in the grill or over the fire pit on a screen or best not to stack?

 

[Paradox]

I've done it in a fireplace once I got a good bed of hot coals going. Worked pretty well. Got nice even color. Probably not quite as good as the pros done in a kiln but it worked fine. It was wire I'd gotten but had to strip off the plastic coating. Didn't want too burn tht off in an in house fireplace. It was a lot of extra work and time to prep which not sure if the savings was worth it.

 

[Maiden69]

I'm actually experimenting with a homemade charcoal fired annealing kiln right now. Still working out how to get it to burn clean and even enough to get an even color, but I can hit the temps needed no problem.

I have been toying with the idea of building a medium size forge, just because I'm nuts... but the problem with it is keeping the temperature steady at mid temps (700-800 F). The ones I have seen working go above that temp pretty quickly, which will result in melted copper. I have also looked into small kilns, but a voice inside my head tells me to don't go there as it is another rabbit hole to fall into.

Evenheat Kiln - Studio Pro STP with Window

The Evenheat Studio Pro STP glass kiln has a convenient viewing window, so you can see your work while firing! Find this unit online today at Kiln Frog.

kilnfrog.com

I am also experimenting with annealing copper wire. I get it from the recycle place here in town. I wrap it in coils but have not cooked any yet. Can I stack it in the grill or over the fire pit on a screen or best not to stack?

I placed them straight over the burner, if you're using charcoal, make it as even as possible and place the wire on top. I think the reason some people get uneven results is when placing on top of any other material that could act as a "heatsink" or over uneven fire.

 

[ShadyStump]

Do you guys quench it water, or let it cool naturally? If been going for 2 days on this kiln idea and not getting the results I'd hoped for. I'm wondering if quenching is part of the problem.

I have been toying with the idea of building a medium size forge, just because I'm nuts... but the problem with it is keeping the temperature steady at mid temps (700-800 F). The ones I have seen working go above that temp pretty quickly, which will result in melted copper. I have also looked into small kilns, but a voice inside my head tells me to don't go there as it is another rabbit hole to fall into.

Evenheat Kiln - Studio Pro STP with Window

The Evenheat Studio Pro STP glass kiln has a convenient viewing window, so you can see your work while firing! Find this unit online today at Kiln Frog.

kilnfrog.com

I placed them straight over the burner, if you're using charcoal, make it as even as possible and place the wire on top. I think the reason some people get uneven results is when placing on top of any other material that could act as a "heatsink" or over uneven fire.

My research said 700-1200F for annealing copper, but I can't get the temperature control in my kiln experiment so far to see a difference in the outcome for different temps.
Do you think the broiler on my oven could do it evenly?

 

[Paradox]

Do you guys quench it water, or let it cool naturally? If been going for 2 days on this kiln idea and not getting the results I'd hoped for. I'm wondering if quenching is part of the problem.

My research said 700-1200F for annealing copper, but I can't get the temperature control in my kiln experiment so far to see a difference in the outcome for different temps.
Do you think the broiler on my oven could do it evenly?

I quenched mine in a bucket so I could handle it faster.

No your oven doesn't get hot enough

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

@August44 - you can stack the wire, no problem. Key is all the wire needs to reach the right temp, depending on your fire, stacking can work for you, or against you.

I anneal by color. Do it after dark so you can see color. Charcoal fire, set wire on rack just barely above the coals. Heat are until it glows a dull cherry red. Remove from heat and allow to slowly air cool. (cooling takes at least 2 beers or half bottle of wine). Should be butter soft wire.

If you heat to bright yellow, you will end up with brittle spots in the wire. It will break as you try to use it. Re-annealing may eliminate the brittleness, but it might not. Best to not over cook the wire, there is such a thing as "too hot".

 

[Maiden69]

Do you think the broiler on my oven could do it evenly?

I don't think so, as most ovens turn off the element as soon as the temp hits the thermostat setting.

Here are some propane options.

10" burner, roll the copper to 9" diameter.

https://www.amazon.com/Concord-Brewing-Equipment-Supply-brewing/dp/B0771WRDGT/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?crid=3O310YJHUZX6T&keywords=gasone+banjo+10%22+propane+burner&qid=1665574329&qu=eyJxc2MiOiIxLjA1IiwicXNhIjoiMC4wMCIsInFzcCI6IjAuMDAifQ%3D%3D&s=home-garden&sprefix=gasone+banjo+10+propane+burner%2Cgarden%2C111&sr=1-1-spons&ufe=app_do%3Aamzn1.fos.08f69ac3-fd3d-4b88-bca2-8997e41410bb&psc=1&smid=AEE3FPYU9HIT&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUEzVjk2V0tLMFBMRExLJmVuY3J5cHRlZElkPUEwNzIyODA1RjNTOEcxS1k3UTJQJmVuY3J5cHRlZEFkSWQ9QTA4NTM0NzQzVFVPRzlHSTdJVldKJndpZGdldE5hbWU9c3BfYXRmJmFjdGlvbj1jbGlja1JlZGlyZWN0JmRvTm90TG9nQ2xpY2s9dHJ1ZQ==

Amazon.com

Hurricane 60,000 BTU Propane Stove

Features a full 60,000 BTU output, a massive 10” low pressure burner, even heat distribution and quiet operation. 13" tall, 15” burner grate inner diameter.

www.williamsbrewing.com

12" burner - once you go past 10" they get expensive.

https://tejassmokers.com/Hot-Plates/HP12-Single-Burner-Hot-Plate-with-12%22-diameter-120-000-btu/hr-BurnerLow-Pressure-or-Natural-Gas/506/31

For $350 or more they can make a round burner...

Square Gas Pipe Burners - Square Pipe Burner with Grease Shield & Control Valve Orifice

Huge collection of Square Gas Pipe Burners - Square Pipe Burner with Grease Shield & Control Valve Orifice. Buy at CustomPipeBurners.com.

custompipeburners.com

 

[Maiden69]

Do you think the broiler on my oven could do it evenly?

I don't think so, as most ovens turn off the element as soon as the temp hits the thermostat setting.

Here are some propane options.

10" burner, roll the copper to 9" diameter.

https://www.amazon.com/Concord-Brewing-Equipment-Supply-brewing/dp/B0771WRDGT/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?crid=3O310YJHUZX6T&keywords=gasone+banjo+10%22+propane+burner&qid=1665574329&qu=eyJxc2MiOiIxLjA1IiwicXNhIjoiMC4wMCIsInFzcCI6IjAuMDAifQ%3D%3D&s=home-garden&sprefix=gasone+banjo+10+propane+burner%2Cgarden%2C111&sr=1-1-spons&ufe=app_do%3Aamzn1.fos.08f69ac3-fd3d-4b88-bca2-8997e41410bb&psc=1&smid=AEE3FPYU9HIT&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUEzVjk2V0tLMFBMRExLJmVuY3J5cHRlZElkPUEwNzIyODA1RjNTOEcxS1k3UTJQJmVuY3J5cHRlZEFkSWQ9QTA4NTM0NzQzVFVPRzlHSTdJVldKJndpZGdldE5hbWU9c3BfYXRmJmFjdGlvbj1jbGlja1JlZGlyZWN0JmRvTm90TG9nQ2xpY2s9dHJ1ZQ==

Amazon.com

Hurricane 60,000 BTU Propane Stove

Features a full 60,000 BTU output, a massive 10” low pressure burner, even heat distribution and quiet operation. 13" tall, 15” burner grate inner diameter.

www.williamsbrewing.com

12" burner - once you go past 10" they get expensive.

https://tejassmokers.com/Hot-Plates/HP12-Single-Burner-Hot-Plate-with-12%22-diameter-120-000-btu/hr-BurnerLow-Pressure-or-Natural-Gas/506/31

For $350 or more they can make a round burner...

Square Gas Pipe Burners - Square Pipe Burner with Grease Shield & Control Valve Orifice

Huge collection of Square Gas Pipe Burners - Square Pipe Burner with Grease Shield & Control Valve Orifice. Buy at CustomPipeBurners.com.

custompipeburners.com

 

[ShadyStump]

Yeah, it's just not worth spending the money on when we're doing this to SAVE money.

The thing about the broiler in your oven is it's not on a thermostat, so doesn't turn off. It's a whole different element/ burner with only one setting that produces direct heat from the top to cook your food vs the regular oven that heats indirectly from all sides.
I might give it a try just to find out.

 

[Maiden69]

Yeah, it's just not worth spending the money on when we're doing this to SAVE money.

For us that may do it once in a blue moon and don't have that many trees yes. But for the people that have many trees, especially trees in refinement a $150 to $400 investment will be worth in the long run. Plus all the burners I posted, including the custom one can be used come family gathering for fried turkey, pork shoulder, a zillion taquitos or lumpias... LOL so well worth the investment.

 

[tkroeker]

I always though that the process makes the wire easy to bend say once then it gets stiff. What I am reading it softens the wire but then it wouldnt hold as well. Please help me understand the properties here. Thanks

 

[August44]

It is my understanding that when you anneal copper wire by heating it to a red hot, consistent temp of 1000-1400 degrees, it is relatively soft. As you apply it around branches and trunks it then gets pretty stiff in a short time. I'm sure others more experienced will chime in here.

 

[ShadyStump]

I always though that the process makes the wire easy to bend say once then it gets stiff. What I am reading it softens the wire but then it wouldnt hold as well. Please help me understand the properties here. Thanks

Annealing breaks up the crystalline structure of the metal molecules, softening the copper.
As the copper is bent and moved, the molecules settle back into their tight crystalline pattern, hardening the metal. This is known as work hardening. Work the metal enough and it becomes stiff and brittle, eventually breaking.

So we anneal the copper to soften it. As we wrap it around a branch and position it it gets worked, and becomes much harder, thus holding the branch much firmer than it could at first.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

You’ve got the concept down, just reversed the process. The short story.

The annealing process uses heat to reduce the hardness and increase the ductility and toughness of various steels, cast iron, and alloys. It involves heating the workpiece beyond its recrystallisation temperature. Doing so encourages new grain formation and allows the existing grains to reorient.

Grain rearrangement and formation relieve the internal stresses of the metal and give the crystal structure a more refined flow.
When annealing, atoms migrate into the crystal lattice and the number of dislocations decreases, leading to a change in ductility and hardness.

When one bends wire the atoms are forced out of alignment in the crystal lattice, work hardening the wire.

Long Story… Here’s an article by Brent at Evergreengardenworks - and Part two for everything you ever wanted to know about the topic… and….Maybe more!

cheers
DSD sends

 

[ShadyStump]

This is what I get for thinking I got something figured out.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Not to worry, it’s happened to me more times then I can count!

Best
DSD sends