Any Interest in a Really Good Penjing Book?

[linlaoboo]

As an ethnic Chinese I can tell you Penjing is definitely not pronounced "Pawn jing" as Ang3lfir3 mentioned in either Cantonese or Mandarin dielects. The reason Penjing lost its influence is partly due to the fact that Chinese Penjing books are written in "simplified Chinese" which alot of overseas Chinese like myself chooses not to read. We prefer books written in traditional Chinese. The word "jing" in Chinese refers to a "scene" and often a single tree doesn't complete a nice scene and therefore there's often mixtures of rocks and figurines to mimic mountain and water in nature. Don't bash, it's just one man's opinion.

 

[Klytus]

I heard Pun Jing,i propose Fen Jing for these reedy water margin scenes.

 

[Ron Dennis]

As an ethnic Chinese I can tell you Penjing is definitely not pronounced "Pawn jing" as Ang3lfir3 mentioned in either Cantonese or Mandarin dielects. The reason Penjing lost its influence is partly due to the fact that Chinese Penjing books are written in "simplified Chinese" which alot of overseas Chinese like myself chooses not to read. We prefer books written in traditional Chinese. The word "jing" in Chinese refers to a "scene" and often a single tree doesn't complete a nice scene and therefore there's often mixtures of rocks and figurines to mimic mountain and water in nature. Don't bash, it's just one man's opinion.

Interesting. What is the correct pronunciation? I am also curious as to why these books are written in "simplified Chinese" and what are some of the differences between simplified and traditional Chinese.

 

[Ron Dennis]

Grouper, count me in. I really like Gnarly Branches and look at the photos frequently. Great job!

 

[dick benbow]

My sensei, david de groot, is half way thru his second book. His first, basic bonsai design is published by the american bonsai society. So there are lots of avenues to bring a book into being. Robert's business is 20 mins from my home. we've been on several suiseki trips together
and the last i heard his teacher might be visting this summer from china. Robt is giving a demo
this mother's day at the buds and bloom celebration in federal way. Check with The pacific Rim
Bonsai display area of weyerhaeuser for times. His demo will be at the pacific rim.

Most of the penjing books i have examined for purchase that were in english, didn't give me what I was looking for, yet i have serveral picture books that come from china that I enjoy studying the photographs.
I just love the "windblown" look (not windswept).

You'll be surprised even when all the ducks are lined up how long it takes to bring a book into the light of day. ( I was in publishing for 16 years) So I urge you to get past the talking stage and start working on the progress. If I may make a suggestion, consider making it a four part set. Each book could focus on the four different areas of china where they have their own distinct styles.

Since robert and david are are associates ( they traveled together to China last year) you might check and see what contacts can be made with ABS and if there is any interest in your project.

Dream big and think positive.....all the best

 

[daygan]

Interesting. What is the correct pronunciation? I am also curious as to why these books are written in "simplified Chinese" and what are some of the differences between simplified and traditional Chinese.

In Mandarin Chinese (I'm not sure about Cantonese or any other dialects) it's more like "pun jing" as long as your pronouncing "pun" as an American would... I'm not certain how someone from England would pronounce "pun" but I suppose it wouldn't be too different. Then you have to add the tones (tonal rising, falling, rising and then falling, or 'monotone') but we won't get into that .

Traditional / Simplified Chinese refers to the characters, not the way it's spoken, as the characters were simplified under the "new regime" to make for easier learning and higher literacy, but they lost a lot of their intricacy. Hong Kong and Taiwan still use the traditional characters. For mainlanders, it can be a bit of a mental "wrestling match" (and sometimes just impossible) to read text in traditional characters, and I imagine it would be the same for those who were educated in traditional characters when trying to read simplified characters.

As to why they're written in simplified characters, I suppose that would indicate that they were printed in the mainland. Why haven't more penjing books come out of Hong Kong, Taiwan, or Singapore? I have no idea.

 

[Ang3lfir3]

As an ethnic Chinese I can tell you Penjing is definitely not pronounced "Pawn jing" as Ang3lfir3 mentioned in either Cantonese or Mandarin dielects.

this is how I learned to say the word from my Chinese speaking friend ..... so take that for what it's worth (see below for why I used "pawn")

In Mandarin Chinese (I'm not sure about Cantonese or any other dialects) it's more like "pun jing" as long as your pronouncing "pun" as an American would...

this is kind of what I was trying to get at ... I was afraid that "pun" wouldn't translate across the web very well

 

[Ron Dennis]

In Mandarin Chinese (I'm not sure about Cantonese or any other dialects) it's more like "pun jing" as long as your pronouncing "pun" as an American would... I'm not certain how someone from England would pronounce "pun" but I suppose it wouldn't be too different. Then you have to add the tones (tonal rising, falling, rising and then falling, or 'monotone') but we won't get into that .

Traditional / Simplified Chinese refers to the characters, not the way it's spoken, as the characters were simplified under the "new regime" to make for easier learning and higher literacy, but they lost a lot of their intricacy. Hong Kong and Taiwan still use the traditional characters. For mainlanders, it can be a bit of a mental "wrestling match" (and sometimes just impossible) to read text in traditional characters, and I imagine it would be the same for those who were educated in traditional characters when trying to read simplified characters.

As to why they're written in simplified characters, I suppose that would indicate that they were printed in the mainland. Why haven't more penjing books come out of Hong Kong, Taiwan, or Singapore? I have no idea.

Thank you. This is very interesting. My daughter-in-law's mother is originally from Hong Kong but has been here in the US for about 30 years. The differences in the two cultures are so intriquing. As large as China is, I am sure there are many differnent dialects in language (just as here in the US) that a simplification makes sense.

 

[Ang3lfir3]

You'll be surprised even when all the ducks are lined up how long it takes to bring a book into the light of day. ( I was in publishing for 16 years) So I urge you to get past the talking stage and start working on the progress.

You know he has already self published a book right?

 

[daygan]

yeah.. trying to explain and discuss pronunciation in print can be a bit difficult. For example, someone from New England would pronounce "pawn" very differently from someone from Georgia. Let's skip it

 

[daygan]

As large as China is, I am sure there are many differnent dialects in language (just as here in the US) that a simplification makes sense.

Well, the simplification was in the characters, not the spoken language. Chinese writing uses pictographs, which don't really convey phonetic pronunciation, they convey a word using what is basically a drawing, and that word can be read by all of those who are educated in the Chinese writing, regardless of what dialect they speak. The dialect "problem" was "resolved" by the institution of the "Common Language" (Mandarin) ... which has sort of become common ... though not everyone speaks it as well as others.

 

[Klytus]

I also heard during the height of the fight against counter-revolutionaries the artistically presented pot plant was regarded as bourgeois or else was the redoubt of subversives,was this the case during all aspects of the collectivisation or did the likes of Comrade Dung go easy on the simple sorts and their smallish attempts at horticulture?

 

[rockm]

Some info can be gleaned from a few sources on the Web about the impact the Cultural Revolution had on native Chinese "penjing."
http://www.fukubonsai.com/5a14b.html

The history of the art, including the apparent mayhem in China during the revolution, could also be interesting, since before that Japanese and chinese "bonsai" were apparently similar. I've read that the isolation of China as a country and even among different regions in the country's interior between 1949 and the late 1970's, inadevertently produced extremely different "schools" of penjing, pentsai etc. Don't know if that's true or not...

 

[Bill S]

I still owe you a sale, but I would grab one of these.

 

[grouper52]

You know he has already self published a book right?

I think not. Nor that I was just talking to his "sensei" a little bit about his second book five days ago at Elandan.

 

[linlaoboo]

In Mandarin Chinese (I'm not sure about Cantonese or any other dialects) it's more like "pun jing" as long as your pronouncing "pun" as an American would... I'm not certain how someone from England would pronounce "pun" but I suppose it wouldn't be too different. Then you have to add the tones (tonal rising, falling, rising and then falling, or 'monotone') but we won't get into that .

Traditional / Simplified Chinese refers to the characters, not the way it's spoken, as the characters were simplified under the "new regime" to make for easier learning and higher literacy, but they lost a lot of their intricacy. Hong Kong and Taiwan still use the traditional characters. For mainlanders, it can be a bit of a mental "wrestling match" (and sometimes just impossible) to read text in traditional characters, and I imagine it would be the same for those who were educated in traditional characters when trying to read simplified characters.

As to why they're written in simplified characters, I suppose that would indicate that they were printed in the mainland. Why haven't more penjing books come out of Hong Kong, Taiwan, or Singapore? I have no idea.

not sure about singapore but I tend to find books on bonsai instead of penjing from Taiwan. My guess is the influence Japanese occupation had on the island. If Penjing originated out of mainland China, I don't think nearby regions stand a chance to compare the amount of knowledge with mainland if it wasn't for CCP's culture revolution. When I went to Guangzhou 5 years, was surprised I couldn't even find bonsai tools to buy at places that specialise in bonsai. Gotta thank the Japanese for systematise the artform and developing the tools into something that's easier to use and grasp instead of the more abstract Chinese art form. Imho it's definitely easier for someone grew up reading traditional Chinese characters to read simplified characters than the other way around. The rest is for the birds. Btw I'd be interested in learning about Penjing from a book written in English. I'm fortunate enough that I can compare books written in both languages.

 

[linlaoboo]

this is how I learned to say the word from my Chinese speaking friend ..... so take that for what it's worth (see below for why I used "pawn")



this is kind of what I was trying to get at ... I was afraid that "pun" wouldn't translate across the web very well

yes it's like no pun intended. I'm glad I'm here to let everyone know it's definitely not pronounced "pawn"

 

[linlaoboo]

Thank you. This is very interesting. My daughter-in-law's mother is originally from Hong Kong but has been here in the US for about 30 years. The differences in the two cultures are so intriquing. As large as China is, I am sure there are many differnent dialects in language (just as here in the US) that a simplification makes sense.

I suggest you should double check with your daughter in law's mother regarding the extent of differences in the hundreds of dialects in China. People from different provinces can't really understand eachother using their native dialects b/c it's like one speaks French and the other speaks English. It's almost definitely not comparable to the US dialects; if you can even call it that. Compare to India.

 

[daygan]

People from different provinces can't really understand eachother using their native dialects b/c it's like one speaks French and the other speaks English.

Yeah... I actually sometimes feel like they shouldn't be considered dialects, but separate languages with a common origin...

 

[linlaoboo]

Yeah... I actually sometimes feel like they shouldn't be considered dialects, but separate languages with a common origin...

Common origin is debadable in a different forum. Some people who speak Hakka will argue that their language sounds closer to Japanese.