Beginner looking for help with natal plum

[Beleniel]

Hi, I'm completely new to bonsai, but I've been reading up on the internet about basic stuff and lurking around on this forum. For my first bonsai, I wanted an "indoor" tree. I ended up getting a natal plum (carissa grandiflora, I think), which is a tropical kind of tree. Unfortunately, I can't find much information on natal plum bonsai. Most of the stuff I find applies to landscaping, which I'm not sure how to apply to bonsai. So anything you guys can tell me (styling, care, etc.) would be incredibly helpful, since all I could find is just general bonsai information.

Some details about my tree:

• It's currently sitting in potting soil. I know, not the best for bonsai, but I wanted to get it out of its pot since the roots were growing out the drain holes and drying out. It seems to be doing okay in the month it's been with me, but do I need to repot it into better soil right now?
• The leaves near the bottom and some smaller leaves have been turning yellow, red, then falling off. I read somewhere that it does that naturally, but I can't find anyone else who says that and I'm worried that I'm killing it. There is new growth that hasn't been yellowing, so maybe I'm too worried.
• I want it to be a smaller bonsai, so I'm hoping the thin trunk isn't as big an issue. I am a bit impatient to begin work on my tree, since it is my only one, lol. I figured it's okay to start thinking about styling and stuff since it's a tropical.
• I'm not sure if it will show up under my avatar, but I live in Coralville, Iowa. I have been keeping it outside on the balcony, but I will need to take it inside eventually for winter. Since I have no garage or anything like that, what kind of set up do I need? Grow lights?

If there's anything I missed or got wrong, let me know. Thanks!

 

[butlern]

I'm new to bonsai myself, so I cannot advise you on your tree…. But I can say that I miss Iowa City (and Coralville, too, I suppose)!!

Just missing old friends and collaborators back at UI.

Good luck with the tree.

Go Hawks!

Noah

 

[jk_lewis]

Unfortunately, I can't find much information on natal plum bonsai.

Don't think you looked too hard:

https://www.google.com/search?q=Natal+plum+bonsai&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8

and (just one site on that list): http://www.bonsaimary.com/Carissa-bonsai.html

DO
YOUR
HOMEWORK

 

[rockm]

My mom had one of the largest and oldest Natal plum bonsai I've seen in the last 25 years. Three foot tall. Twin trunk design with trunks two inches in diameter each. Flowered and fruited all through the summer. Beautiful tree. Wish I had a photo of it. It passed on a few years ago after being repeatedly assaulted by squirrels.

Read what Jim posted, but here are a few short notes on care--
Can't stand freezing temps in a bonsai container.
Needs to be brought in as the first frosts approach, but it is not really a tropical and is used in Mediterranean climates (southern Cal. etc.) as tough hedging material.
Uses regular free-draining bonsai soil (potting soil will eventually kill it)
Winter location should have bright light, but tree will most likely drop a few leaves and stop growing in the winter
Hard pruning (like down to a single leaf on each branch) in the spring will produce tight, attractive growth
Needs full sun all summer.
It is also self-pollinating and WILL produce fruit reliably. It doesn't taste very good though.
It doesn't like to have its roots messed with much. Cautious with root pruning. I wouldn't remove more than 40 percent at a time, less if possible.

 

[Cypress187]

Welcome to the forum.

 

[Beleniel]

Don't think you looked too hard:

https://www.google.com/search?q=Natal+plum+bonsai&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8

and (just one site on that list): http://www.bonsaimary.com/Carissa-bonsai.html

DO
YOUR
HOMEWORK

Thank you for trying to help, but Google is one of the first places I looked before posting this, and even before getting this tree. That particular page you linked (and which I've read before) was incredibly unhelpful compared to the four or five care pages that I've found.

I could have been clearer with what I meant by that statement. I know about the basics: temperature, soil, watering, etc. What Google does not tell me is stuff like my yellow/red leaves problem or whether it's safe to repot this soon (even though this is the best time for it). And even some of the information I found is somewhat conflicting. I read on one care page that they like a slightly acidic soil and should use an acid fertilizer, but nothing else I've read says anything about that.

I was hoping that someone more experienced than me with this tree species could help clear some things up, rather than just me muddling around the internet praying that I don't kill my new tree, especially since I'm a total newbie and apparently choose a tree that's not as popular and well-known as chinese elm.

 

[Beleniel]

My mom had one of the largest and oldest Natal plum bonsai I've seen in the last 25 years. Three foot tall. Twin trunk design with trunks two inches in diameter each. Flowered and fruited all through the summer. Beautiful tree. Wish I had a photo of it. It passed on a few years ago after being repeatedly assaulted by squirrels.

Read what Jim posted, but here are a few short notes on care--
Can't stand freezing temps in a bonsai container.
Needs to be brought in as the first frosts approach, but it is not really a tropical and is used in Mediterranean climates (southern Cal. etc.) as tough hedging material.
Uses regular free-draining bonsai soil (potting soil will eventually kill it)
Winter location should have bright light, but tree will most likely drop a few leaves and stop growing in the winter
Hard pruning (like down to a single leaf on each branch) in the spring will produce tight, attractive growth
Needs full sun all summer.
It is also self-pollinating and WILL produce fruit reliably. It doesn't taste very good though.
It doesn't like to have its roots messed with much. Cautious with root pruning. I wouldn't remove more than 40 percent at a time, less if possible.

Thanks for the advice! I'm sorry to hear/read about your mother's tree. Certainly didn't expect anything like squirrels.

A few questions about what you posted:

• Should I attempt to repot now, even though it's only been about a month (more like month and a half)? I'm worried that repotting now would cause too much stress, especially since I don't know what's going on with the leaves.
• Bright light, gotcha. Will I need a humidity tray though? Some sources I've found say I do, some say I don't.
• Speaking of leaves, is the yellowing/reddening normal then around this time of year?
• Will it grow back from a hard prune? I had to prune some of the growth when I first got it because it was infested with scale insects and spider mites later on (learned my lesson from mail-ordering). One of the branches was cut down to a single leaf. While it's still green, the cut area above the leaf seems to have hardened with no new growth. Maybe because it's too late in the growing season?

 

[rockm]

Short answers--I wouldn't repot now. I'd keep the tree in the soil it is in now until early next summer. It's too late in the season for a strong recovery of root work. Repotting when it's warm (or even hot) outside will let the plant recover more quickly (if it's kept outside in the spring/summer as it should be)

Humidity trays are a scam. They're un needed, in effective and are sold mostly as a profit center for mass market bonsai sellers.

The yellowing/reddening could be from overwatering, or underwatering. Make sure you're not doing either. This species like constantly moist, but not soggy soil.

It will most certainly grow back from a hard pruning, IF you make sure to leave at least a single green leaf on a limb and it's pruned in the growing season (not in fall/winter dormancy period). They backbud profusely after a hard pruning.

Squirrels and chipmunks love fruiting trees (and a lot of maple species) because of the abundance of sugar in the sap, as well as the fruit. They will destroy trees to get either.

 

[jk_lewis]

It doesn't taste very good though.

Hmmm. When grown out doors in Florida it is quite tasty.

 

[jk_lewis]

I know about the basics: temperature, soil, watering, etc. (emphasis added)What Google does not tell me is stuff like my yellow/red leaves problem or whether it's safe to repot this soon (even though this is the best time for it). And even some of the information I found is somewhat conflicting. I read on one care page that they like a slightly acidic soil and should use an acid fertilizer, but nothing else I've read says anything about that.

Well, sorry for the misunderstanding, but you could always e-mail or phone or otherwise contact Mary or whoever's pages you have studied. However, you only really learn about bonsai by "muddling" with them after you learn your basics of keeping them alive -- as those pages would/could tell you. I don't know anyone who has successfully managed bonsai after having the info handed to them on a platter without a bit of "muddling." Muddling is what imprints knowledge into you head.

 

[rockm]

Hmmm. When grown out doors in Florida it is quite tasty.

Hmmm. When grown out doors in Florida it is quite tasty.

"tasty" is a relative term, I guess.

 

[jk_lewis]

Hey! I only said it once!

 

[augustine]

Keep the top of the soil clean of debris and old leaves and don't overwater. If the surface is crusty/hard gently rake (use chopstick) and add more substrate if necessary. (Dense nursery soils retains water.) Repot next year as RockM suggests.

 

[pitchpine]

I have a couple of these, one of which seems to be a small-leafed cultivar. I can sympathize with your frustration over finding inconsistent advice online, but agree with jkl that some muddling is part of the game when it comes to bonsai. There are just so many variables to take into account---the main one being the soil/substrate.

(Sorry, this got a little long-winded, feel free to skip the next two paragraphs, if you have no interest in the story of my own muddling).

My older natal plum has been in very coarse soil since I got it as a prebonsai about 6 years ago (it's still decidedly in the prebonsai stage, but is coming along slowly). In trying to develop the nebari I noted that I kept finding new roots dying off, and couldn't tell whether it was from overwatering or underwatering---the leaves themselves were always in good condition. Everything I had read online indicated that they didn't like to be kept too wet, even that they needed to dry out between waterings. So I erred on the side of caution with water, but kept a close eye on it.

It was only when I acquired my second plant, which I got during a wiring workshop and thus didn't repot out of its nursery soil for almost a year, that I discovered I had been underwatering the original tree all along. While it's true that the species doesn't like to be kept soggy, I've realized that in a coarse inorganic mix, all new roots near the surface were drying out and dying. Whereas with my second tree in the nursery soil (albeit in a relatively small pot), they retained more moisture and survived long enough to grow downward and establish better.

Now I have both trees in inorganic substrate and both are doing well with my new watering strategy: soak the whole soil profile basically daily in the full summer sun, but always tip the pot after to make sure the bottom of the pot doesn't have a pool of water remaining.

So basically I came on my own by trial & error to the well-stated advice rockm gave you to keep this species moist but not wet. But how to accomplish this depends very much on the nature of your potting material and the size of the pot related to the root mass. With what you've got yours in now, I would advise watering thoroughly but not too often. Probably keep to the old maxim of waiting until the first half inch or more of soil is dried out before you water again (which as I discovered does NOT work in inorganic mix, at least not when you're
still developing a partially exposed nebari).

 

[Beleniel]

Short answers--I wouldn't repot now. I'd keep the tree in the soil it is in now until early next summer. It's too late in the season for a strong recovery of root work. Repotting when it's warm (or even hot) outside will let the plant recover more quickly (if it's kept outside in the spring/summer as it should be)

Humidity trays are a scam. They're un needed, in effective and are sold mostly as a profit center for mass market bonsai sellers.

The yellowing/reddening could be from overwatering, or underwatering. Make sure you're not doing either. This species like constantly moist, but not soggy soil.

It will most certainly grow back from a hard pruning, IF you make sure to leave at least a single green leaf on a limb and it's pruned in the growing season (not in fall/winter dormancy period). They backbud profusely after a hard pruning.

Squirrels and chipmunks love fruiting trees (and a lot of maple species) because of the abundance of sugar in the sap, as well as the fruit. They will destroy trees to get either.

Hm, from what I understood about humidity trays, they were suppose to be more effective at keeping moisture in the air than just misting the leaves due to evaporation. Maybe I just misunderstood?

I have tried to limit watering because I didn't want too much water to collect at the bottom. I've also been using the chopstick test to check the soil. I could be underwatering it because I've been waiting for the soil to dry out a bit... I'll change my watering and see how it turns out.

And thanks for all the advice!

 

[Beleniel]

Well, sorry for the misunderstanding, but you could always e-mail or phone or otherwise contact Mary or whoever's pages you have studied. However, you only really learn about bonsai by "muddling" with them after you learn your basics of keeping them alive -- as those pages would/could tell you. I don't know anyone who has successfully managed bonsai after having the info handed to them on a platter without a bit of "muddling." Muddling is what imprints knowledge into you head.

Sorry if I came off as rude or offended. I'm just overly anxious not to kill my first tree. I know it happens sometimes, plus I have something of a "black thumb" when it comes to plants I'm just hoping the more advice I get, the better chances my tree will survive my first attempts at bonsai.

 

[Beleniel]

Keep the top of the soil clean of debris and old leaves and don't overwater. If the surface is crusty/hard gently rake (use chopstick) and add more substrate if necessary. (Dense nursery soils retains water.) Repot next year as RockM suggests.

Thanks for the advice!

 

[Beleniel]

I have a couple of these, one of which seems to be a small-leafed cultivar. I can sympathize with your frustration over finding inconsistent advice online, but agree with jkl that some muddling is part of the game when it comes to bonsai. There are just so many variables to take into account---the main one being the soil/substrate.

(Sorry, this got a little long-winded, feel free to skip the next two paragraphs, if you have no interest in the story of my own muddling).

My older natal plum has been in very coarse soil since I got it as a prebonsai about 6 years ago (it's still decidedly in the prebonsai stage, but is coming along slowly). In trying to develop the nebari I noted that I kept finding new roots dying off, and couldn't tell whether it was from overwatering or underwatering---the leaves themselves were always in good condition. Everything I had read online indicated that they didn't like to be kept too wet, even that they needed to dry out between waterings. So I erred on the side of caution with water, but kept a close eye on it.

It was only when I acquired my second plant, which I got during a wiring workshop and thus didn't repot out of its nursery soil for almost a year, that I discovered I had been underwatering the original tree all along. While it's true that the species doesn't like to be kept soggy, I've realized that in a coarse inorganic mix, all new roots near the surface were drying out and dying. Whereas with my second tree in the nursery soil (albeit in a relatively small pot), they retained more moisture and survived long enough to grow downward and establish better.

Now I have both trees in inorganic substrate and both are doing well with my new watering strategy: soak the whole soil profile basically daily in the full summer sun, but always tip the pot after to make sure the bottom of the pot doesn't have a pool of water remaining.

So basically I came on my own by trial & error to the well-stated advice rockm gave you to keep this species moist but not wet. But how to accomplish this depends very much on the nature of your potting material and the size of the pot related to the root mass. With what you've got yours in now, I would advise watering thoroughly but not too often. Probably keep to the old maxim of waiting until the first half inch or more of soil is dried out before you water again (which as I discovered does NOT work in inorganic mix, at least not when you're
still developing a partially exposed nebari).

Thanks for the advice. Like I mentioned above, I'm just overly worried about my first tree.

And I have no problem with you telling your own stories. I think one of the most interesting things about bonsai is the stories that people have about their trees, no matter what kind of stories they are

Hm, I should maybe check the roots then to see if I am underwatering, since so far it's just been the leaves.

 

[sorce]

. Maybe I just misunderstood?

Oh no, you were misled.
Lied too.
Sold something.

You're in good hands now!

Welcome to Crazy!

Sorce

 

[rockm]

Hm, from what I understood about humidity trays, they were suppose to be more effective at keeping moisture in the air than just misting the leaves due to evaporation. Maybe I just misunderstood?

I have tried to limit watering because I didn't want too much water to collect at the bottom. I've also been using the chopstick test to check the soil. I could be underwatering it because I've been waiting for the soil to dry out a bit... I'll change my watering and see how it turns out.

And thanks for all the advice!

If you listen to people trying to sell you a humidity tray or listen to the hundreds of self-professed "experts" in online videos who don't so much do bonsai, but make videos ABOUT bonsai, that's what they'll tell you. You have to be very careful about who you listen to online about bonsai. There are some huge crackpots and idiots making bonsai videos...In the real world, humidity trays don't raise humidity to any appreciable level--same goes for misting inside. Humidity trays can also wind up wicking water up in the soil, if you're not cautious with the water level. That wicking action can result in root rot over time.

Neither humidity trays or misting are very effective--misting CAN raise the humidity levels somewhat, but it lasts only a few minutes. To have any affect on indoor plants, humidity levels in entire rooms have to be raised and that can mean mold mildew etc. in the room. Putting the tree in the bathroom is probably more effective than a humidity tray and misting combined.