Beginner question - Is this Pine hopeless?

[Srt8madness]

I thought JBP don't require a dormancy? So many people here growing them in Australia including a whole nursery in Queensland, @Shibui @Ryceman3 . Can someone confirm?

It's a common and oft repeated myth that JBP need some "frost" period or something. Often made by people living in cooler climates. One of the most vigorously growing JBP I've ever seen was in the tropics, and even posted here on the 'nut.

 

[minkes]

"so I assume it will work on most pines." as long as one has needles in the area, right? No needles, not buds? Thanks for the clarification.

As I know from my pines - No needles = much much less possibility for buds, but sometimes miracles happens... sometimes.. But you will need strong and healthy needle mass that will produce possibility for backbudding on the parts of branch without needles. So my priority will be to let the tree build strenght for one or more years with good free draining substrate and lot of fertilizer.

 

[Shibui]

I thought JBP don't require a dormancy? So many people here growing them in Australia including a whole nursery in Queensland, @Shibui @Ryceman3 . Can someone confirm?

No problem growing JBP in frost free areas. Some growers get 3 or 4 flushes of growth each year.

 

[Shibui]

"so I assume it will work on most pines." as long as one has needles in the area, right? No needles, not buds? Thanks for the clarification.

Yes. Buds form at the base of the needle fascicle just as new buds form at the base of leaf stems on deciduous trees. Healthy needles = almost certain buds.
No needles on pines can be several different situations.
- 3 year old needles have recently fallen. There's still a good chance of buds here.
- Areas that were the bare 'necks' of strong candles. Never had needles. Almost no chance of buds here.
- Older sections where needles fell off several years ago. Decreasing chances of buds according to how long since the needles died.
As @minkes pointed out, expect the unexpected but don't rely on it. It's not common but sometimes we do get buds on older parts, especially if the tree is vigorous and was pruned hard.

 

[souvik1811]

As Peter Chan would say, I bit the proverbial bullet and chopped the 'Keeper' branches. I believe I have kept enough healthy needles, and I removed the wiring that was in between, hopefully to not interfere with any growing buds.

I left a strongly growing branch upwards, which I eventually intend to use as a sacrifice branch. The only fear I have, as @Shibui said, is that the upright growing candle might overpower these two branches. I hope I can wait for some weeks, and then if I do not get buds yet, I might chop the upward branch too. :/ I wonder if that is a reasonable idea, or am I nuts?

 

[SeanS]

If you want to use a branch as a sacrifice then you shouldn’t have cut it. You need the sacrifice to grow with all the might it can to thicken everything below it. Now you have to hope and wait that some buds will pop, and then wait for one of them to grow to the size that the candle would have grown to before that new sacrifice starts doing any fattening to the tree. You’ve essentially taken a season (or 2) sized step backwards.

 

[souvik1811]

If you want to use a branch as a sacrifice then you shouldn’t have cut it. You need the sacrifice to grow with all the might it can to thicken everything below it. Now you have to hope and wait that some buds will pop, and then wait for one of them to grow to the size that the candle would have grown to before that new sacrifice starts doing any fattening to the tree. You’ve essentially taken a season (or 2) sized step backwards.

Oops, just to clarify, there were three branches. I cut two. The third one pointing up (not in the picture) is still intact with its full candle.
The third intact branch is intended to be the sacrificial one. The bottom two branches (that are in the picture) were cut and I hope to get back buds there. I am just afraid that the sacrificial one does not impede the growth of buds on the lower two cut ones.
Sorry if it wasn't clear earlier.

 

[minkes]

Waiting for backbuds is not counted in weeks but in months and sometimes in years (1-3)

 

[souvik1811]

Waiting for backbuds is not counted in weeks but in months and sometimes in years (1-3)

 

[SeanS]

Oops, just to clarify, there were three branches. I cut two. The third one pointing up (not in the picture) is still intact with its full candle.
The third intact branch is intended to be the sacrificial one. The bottom two branches (that are in the picture) were cut and I hope to get back buds there. I am just afraid that the sacrificial one does not impede the growth of buds on the lower two cut ones.
Sorry if it wasn't clear earlier.

Is this your sacrifice that’s unpruned

 

[souvik1811]

In fact I changed the branch positions a little since that last pic. So it isnt the one you highlighted.

This is how it looks at the moment. Sorry for the messy picture.

 

[SeanS]

In fact I changed the branch positions a little since that last pic. So it isnt the one you highlighted.

This is how it looks at the moment. Sorry for the messy picture.

You have 3 shoots/branches coming from the same spot. You don’t want that for too long or you’ll end up with swelling and inverse taper in that area

 

[souvik1811]

You have 3 shoots/branches coming from the same spot. You don’t want that for too long or you’ll end up with swelling and inverse taper in that area

Thanks. Ill keep an eye out for it, to be sure to remove it before the swelling gets noticeable

 

[Shibui]

I left a strongly growing branch upwards, which I eventually intend to use as a sacrifice branch. The only fear I have, as @Shibui said, is that the upright growing candle might overpower these two branches. I hope I can wait for some weeks, and then if I do not get buds yet, I might chop the upward branch too. :/ I wonder if that is a reasonable idea, or am I nuts?

You can keep the sacrifice branch AND get good budding on the chopped branches. Simply pull the end of the sacrifice branch down below the level of the chopped branches until the new buds are growing well - maybe 3 months? It should still work as a sacrifice branch while it is down low but for better growth it can go back up when the new shoots are strong.

I believe I have kept enough healthy needles, and I removed the wiring that was in between, hopefully to not interfere with any growing buds.

I think you have more than enough needles. Like deciduous, new buds mostly from the few cm closest to the chopped end. Not sure of your ultimate plan and whether buds out that far will be OK but I would have chopped way shorter.

New branches starting further back are way more useful than branches right out at the ends on long branches. 4-6 pairs of needles is more than enough to get new buds.

Waiting for backbuds is not counted in weeks but in months and sometimes in years (1-3)

Backbuds from bare wood can take years but buds from needles will grow the same season.

You have 3 shoots/branches coming from the same spot. You don’t want that for too long or you’ll end up with swelling and inverse taper in that area

Fortunately only 2 are to be kept long term because 1 is the sacrifice to be chopped at some stage. Definitely something to be aware of and watch out. If it seems to be even slightly inverse taper get the sacrifice off. The swelling seems to continue after removal so if it's just noticeable before it will be more noticeable after

 

[souvik1811]

All advice followed diligently. The cut branches were cut back further, and the sacrifice branch pulled down (as highlighted in blue). Fingers crossed.
Please forgive the reckless wiring at the bottom again, I am just hoping it will cut in a bit and gnarl the trunk up, in order to fix the inverse taper as far as possible. I also wired the bottom branches this time, hopefully to have something interesting in the future in terms of jin options.

 

[Potawatomi13]

If you want to use a branch as a sacrifice then you shouldn’t have cut it. You need the sacrifice to grow with all the might it can to thicken everything below it. Now you have to hope and wait that some buds will pop, and then wait for one of them to grow to the size that the candle would have grown to before that new sacrifice starts doing any fattening to the tree. You’ve essentially taken a season (or 2) sized step backwards.

With Literati thick trunk not generally desired. So no sacrifice needed

 

[souvik1811]

Some updates:

• I had potted up one of the cut ends of the branches with zero hope - just of the sake of it, and left it to someone's care for about four weeks for a vacation. Apparently, the watering was not maintained by them and the shoot died. But I was very surprised to see what looked like a very tiny root - as highlighted in green in the picture below - even though it didn't make it eventually.
  This is contrary to everything I had read about JBPs online about JBP cuttings being extremely hard to root. Did this root because the tip of the shoot was probably very vigorous in early spring? So potentially cuttings could work?
  
  
• After 4 weeks there were no signs of backbudding at the tips of the two cut branches. Considering the warnings regarding inverse taper, I eventually chopped off one of the two main branches. And I pulled back the previous 'Sacrifice' branch (thanks to @Potawatomi13's suggestion), back up as the new leader. I also quite like the added length due to this. I did not cut off the extending candle yet, so that it hopefully keeps the smaller candles from extending too much. Eventually though, I will cut it at the red line below - probably in August.
  
  
• I decided against doing any decandling this year. I have some smaller candles at the top of the leader, and I intend to keep only two and remove the rest in Autumn this year. I will probably try to decandle next year - if it hopefully makes it till then.
• Here's another miracle: I just noticed today two buds on bare wood without any needles. I don't know if they will really flourish, but the very fact that it bore buds on bare wood is contrary to all I knew about JBPs.
  One of them is at the back. The other is on the branch I had chopped just two weeks back!! They are very small and just popped out, so they are a little difficult to notice in the pictures.
  
  And very strangely, the branch that I had shortened but left a lot of needles on has not got any buds yet! Now I am very inclined towards converting that branch to a Jin later this year after the growing season is over.
• Finally, during my vacation, I stopped by the Crespi showroom in Milan, and got myself this pot. The plan is to transfer in Autumn - would that be the right time?
  

 

[souvik1811]

Update: We finally have a needle bud. @Shibui was right!!


The other two backbuds on bare wood are also doing fine. Pics attached.

For now, I am just letting them be. I will see what they turn up to be. In any case, they are not absolutely essential to the design I have in mind. But it's always nice to observe how a new species (new for me) behaves reacts.