Benichidori softwood propagation

[Noulinator]

Hello!

I saw a youtube video on softwood propation on japanese maples.

Decided to try on my benichidori. I used rooting hormone gel and planted in two different substrates.
1: 100 % vermiculite
2: 50 % vermiculite 50 % perlite

Keeping them in an indoors mini greenhouse

Very excited to see if I have any luck.
Any tips or someone out there trying the same?

 

[Jrmcmich]

You plan to keep these covered with plastic or something similar? Feel like they will dry out quickly if not covered. Also wonder if vermiculite will remain too wet but at least you can compare. I have Done perlite/coco coir mix for cuttings although my success rate is probably 30% so not great

 

[Noulinator]

You plan to keep these covered with plastic or something similar? Feel like they will dry out quickly if not covered. Also wonder if vermiculite will remain too wet but at least you can compare. I have Done perlite/coco coir mix for cuttings although my success rate is probably 30% so not great

Yes they are inside a mini greenhouse like this one:

 

[Noulinator]

Yes they are inside a mini greenhouse like this one:


Are you also doing japanese maple cuttings?

 

[andrewiles]

It's a good first try but unfortunately I think your odds of success are low.

Two main issues:

1. You've taken the cuttings too soon. The leaves need to finish growing and build up some energy reserves before you strike them. Your leaves have little energy and will lose water very fast because they are not yet hardened off.
2. With maples you'll be much more successful if you take cuttings from very vigorous shoots. Typically long leaders at the apex of your stock material. These have more energy. Your cuttings are healthy but they are not vigorous. They are likely too weak to last long enough to produce roots.

If they fail you'll know soon enough. They'll wilt and dessicate. As long as they stay turgid you've got a chance.

 

[Noulinator]

It's a good first try but unfortunately I think your odds of success are low.

Two main issues:

1. You've taken the cuttings too soon. The leaves need to finish growing and build up some energy reserves before you strike them. Your leaves have little energy and will lose water very fast because they are not yet hardened off.
2. With maples you'll be much more successful if you take cuttings from very vigorous shoots. Typically long leaders at the apex of your stock material. These have more energy. Your cuttings are healthy but they are not vigorous. They are likely too weak to last long enough to produce roots.

If they fail you'll know soon enough. They'll wilt and dessicate. As long as they stay turgid you've got a chance.

you were right! They died.

I tried again with a aeroponic propagator.

How does it look this time? Should I reduce leafmass like with the “hagiri” tecnique?

Using clonex rooting hormone gel and clonex pro start. Temperature around 20-23 degrees.

Benichidori and deshojo cuttings

 

[Hack Yeah!]

You could try reducing the leaves on a few. Either way mist often.

 

[andrewiles]

you were right! They died.

I tried again with a aeroponic propagator.

How does it look this time? Should I reduce leafmass like with the “hagiri” tecnique?

Using clonex rooting hormone gel and clonex pro start. Temperature around 20-23 degrees.

Benichidori and deshojo cuttings

This is much better. Pretty good odds that you get at least a few to root.

As long as you keep the lid closed you shouldn't need to mist. It will be humid inside the enclosure.
Best to replace the water in the tank every so often. Perhaps every 2 weeks.
It will usually take a few weeks to get any roots, so you'll need some patience.
I can't tell what your lighting setup is, but from my experience you want to replicate what you'd get in light shade outside. So no intense, direct light.
Some of the cuttings still look a little young (since they are not completely green). These are less likely to root.
All of your cuttings look healthy, but they are still not from vigorous shoots. Next time if you can fertilize your parent tree heavily, you'll likely get stronger cutting material.
From my experience 2 leaves per cutting is a good target. Looks like you're mostly doing that here. More than that and the cuttings tend to shed them.
I think you'd benefit from getting the temperature a bit higher if you can. At least 26 degrees. Plants tend to root better under warmer conditions.

Good luck!

 

[Noulinator]

This is much better. Pretty good odds that you get at least a few to root.

As long as you keep the lid closed you shouldn't need to mist. It will be humid inside the enclosure.
Best to replace the water in the tank every so often. Perhaps every 2 weeks.
It will usually take a few weeks to get any roots, so you'll need some patience.
I can't tell what your lighting setup is, but from my experience you want to replicate what you'd get in light shade outside. So no intense, direct light.
Some of the cuttings still look a little young (since they are not completely green). These are less likely to root.
All of your cuttings look healthy, but they are still not from vigorous shoots. Next time if you can fertilize your parent tree heavily, you'll likely get stronger cutting material.
From my experience 2 leaves per cutting is a good target. Looks like you're mostly doing that here. More than that and the cuttings tend to shed them.
I think you'd benefit from getting the temperature a bit higher if you can. At least 26 degrees. Plants tend to root better under warmer conditions.

Good luck!

Thanks! Unfortunately im seeing some cuttings dieing off with black stems and leaves. The propagator is running 24/7. Should I have bought a control panel so it only sprays at preset intervals?

The vents in the lid was closed because I was afraid of it drying out, but I have opened them a little bit now. Maybe too humid?

 

[Canada Bonsai]

why re-invent the wheel?

I use this method for beni chidori, it's been used for decades, I get very high success rates year after year

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0283/4877/6541/files/JAPANESE_MAPLE_PROPAGATION-compressed.pdf?v=1731492926

 

[Noulinator]

T

why re-invent the wheel?

I use this method for beni chidori, it's been used for decades, I get very high success rates year after year

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0283/4877/6541/files/JAPANESE_MAPLE_PROPAGATION-compressed.pdf?v=1731492926

Thank you! Definitely nice to know.
However I find it interesting experimenting with this kind of propagation too

 

[andrewiles]

why re-invent the wheel?

I use this method for beni chidori, it's been used for decades, I get very high success rates year after year

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0283/4877/6541/files/JAPANESE_MAPLE_PROPAGATION-compressed.pdf?v=1731492926

Nothing wrong with the propagation machines. They're arguably better for beginners because they negate the need for misting. I've tried them and they work pretty well for maples.

 

[andrewiles]

Thanks! Unfortunately im seeing some cuttings dieing off with black stems and leaves. The propagator is running 24/7. Should I have bought a control panel so it only sprays at preset intervals?

The vents in the lid was closed because I was afraid of it drying out, but I have opened them a little bit now. Maybe too humid?

You shouldn't be seeing black stems, esp. so soon after starting. I'm not sure what's wrong. Possibly the tools (or the water) is not clean. Or the water temps are too cool. Or the cuttings tips dried out, even if just for a bit.

The water should be on 24/7. The cuttings will die very quickly if it is turned off. The vents should probably be closed. You want the humidity inside to be high enough to keep the cuttings from drying out.

I'm pretty sure there is no need for the rooting gel. The solution you add to the water normally has rooting hormones in it.

 

[leatherback]

they negate the need for misting

why do you mist cuttings?

 

[andrewiles]

Well, you either need to mist or keep the humidity high. Aeroponic propagators do the latter.

I personally have one of these for misting and they work pretty well.

 

[Noulinator]

Update:

2 benichidoris have rooted.
1 deshojo have rooted.

At least two more cuttings are showing signs to start rooting..
and a lot of cuttings are still looking healthy.

 

[PA_Penjing]

I use this method for beni chidori, it's been used for decades, I get very high success rates year after year

Wow, thank you for sharing your method despite selling cuttings. That's cool of you.

And congrats @Noulinator you've propagated more maples than I have haha. Been looking at cloners for years but can't justify the purchase yet

 

[Noulinator]

Wow, thank you for sharing your method despite selling cuttings. That's cool of you.

And congrats @Noulinator you've propagated more maples than I have haha. Been looking at cloners for years but can't justify the purchase yet

Thanks a lot!

 

[Canada Bonsai]

Wow, thank you for sharing your method despite selling cuttings. That's cool of you.

Haha

I give any information i have away freely

I rather not produce 15,000 cuttings per year all by myself, but right now i have no choice. I truly appreciate the system in japan, where many hobbyists are also propagating and growing material for sale … and here in north america where our average property size is MUCH bigger than it is in Japan, i don’t see why more of us are not doing it.

I do a lot behind the scenes to promote the decentralization of my activities. This year there were over 20 hobbyists in Canada who i outsourced my propagation to, and there are others who took over entire species from me and sell direct to market (at bonsai events, online, etc)

… in an ideal world i get to reduce my in-house propagation by at least 75% and focus on developping bonsai over longer scales of time (developing nevari, trunks, etc)

 

[MrBonsai19]

Haha

I give any information i have away freely

I rather not produce 15,000 cuttings per year all by myself, but right now i have no choice. I truly appreciate the system in japan, where many hobbyists are also propagating and growing material for sale … and here in north america where our average property size is MUCH bigger than it is in Japan, i don’t see why more of us are not doing it.

I do a lot behind the scenes to promote the decentralization of my activities. This year there were over 20 hobbyists in Canada who i outsourced my propagation to, and there are others who took over entire species from me and sell direct to market (at bonsai events, online, etc)

… in an ideal world i get to reduce my in-house propagation by at least 75% and focus on developing bonsai over longer scales of time (developing nevari, trunks, etc)

Just a follow-up question - I understand your approach is driven by maximizing volume of individual cuttings*, but if you were more interested in maximizing the strength of the individual cuttings (even if it meant fewer total cuttings) would you consider taking cuttings that are 2 or 3 nodes instead of a single node?

Would the cutting have more strength and momentum to grow forward and faster if it had more nodes?

Also echoing the sentiment shared here of appreciation for you and the work you are doing and the knowledge you are sharing