Black pine first styling

[Drjd]

I just purchased a new Japanese cork bark Black Pine. This is my first pine and I’m really excited. I’ve read a lot and watched a lot on styling black Pines and black pine care. Unfortunately the issue I’ve run into is not something I’ve read enough about. The first branches seem to have grown in a spoke and wheel pattern (5 large primary branches radiating in a circle from the middle portion of the tree). I was hoping for some ideas for the initial styling especially regarding how to correct or make the spoke pattern work for this tree. Of course my major concern is given the thick branches radiate around the tree I’m not sure how to remove them without leaving large scars over both sides that could have been the front. that may never be completely correctable. I appreciate any help in guidance! I also appreciate any articles or videos that you can direct me to help me address this issue.

 

[Japonicus]

So you'll want to 1st decide at ground level the interest of the nebari vs trunk
and branch interest. At what best point does the nebari look best, how can that
work with what branches you want to keep?

Keep branches with the most close in bifurcation, one that will allow you to develop good ramification
closer into the trunk than further out.

Let us know where in the world you live, edit your profile to give a general idea as to where you are.

The "spoke" left to its' own, will develop a thicker knuckle as long as it is left.
Other more knowledgable folks will tell you how many is best to reduce to.
If 5 I remove 2 or 3 branches. Later another year, you can remove yet another.

Keep a sacrifice going in the apex, but there's several branches up there that need to be gone now
if you are heading into Winter. More on that when we find out where you are.

I’m not sure how to remove them without leaving large scars

Leave a good stub so the trunk will heal that small area, and either coat the end with vasoline
or cut paste to protect. Later another year, after the branch dries up you can either jin it, or remove more.

I'm not sure who wired it as you just purchased it, but it should not have been wired
if that is how it would be done.

Bonsai Wiring Essentials

Uncover professional secrets to wiring better, faster and more accurately in this FREE mini-class, and develop beautiful bonsai trees!

www.craftsy.com

So what season of the year are you in where you live???

 

[Drjd]

So you'll want to 1st decide at ground level the interest of the nebari vs trunk
and branch interest. At what best point does the nebari look best, how can that
work with what branches you want to keep?

Keep branches with the most close in bifurcation, one that will allow you to develop good ramification
closer into the trunk than further out.

Let us know where in the world you live, edit your profile to give a general idea as to where you are.

The "spoke" left to its' own, will develop a thicker knuckle as long as it is left.
Other more knowledgable folks will tell you how many is best to reduce to.
If 5 I remove 2 or 3 branches. Later another year, you can remove yet another.

Keep a sacrifice going in the apex, but there's several branches up there that need to be gone now
if you are heading into Winter. More on that when we find out where you are.


Leave a good stub so the trunk will heal that small area, and either coat the end with vasoline
or cut paste to protect. Later another year, after the branch dries up you can either jin it, or remove more.

I'm not sure who wired it as you just purchased it, but it should not have been wired
if that is how it would be done.

Bonsai Wiring Essentials

Uncover professional secrets to wiring better, faster and more accurately in this FREE mini-class, and develop beautiful bonsai trees!

www.craftsy.com

So what season of the year are you in where you live???

Thank you for the reply!

I live in Southwest Florida. I apologize for failing to mention that. Temperatures here are around 80 during the day and 50 at night. We had some colder weeks with 60 as the high and 40 as the low but that’s about the coldest it will get here. February can be a cold month in Florida but as for a true winter, I’m not sure we really have one (in regards to tree physiology, tropical trees slowed down during our 40 degree weather nights).

I did some initial wiring to just lower some branches which were all pointed up. Normally I do my best styling after I wire every branch to see what can be done and what needs to be removed.

So far my plan is to remove the forward and back branches in the middle of the tree that are like a spoke (three branches in total). I was then going to use a guy wire to pull down the left and right branch with the intent to make the left branch a semi cascade In the direction the tree is leaning. I was planning on possibly removing the right branch but not this year (as you had mentioned). As for the top there’s a lot to be done but it seems to be a little bit more logical to me. Most of those branches are not as thick compared to the ones in the middle which are extremely thick when compared to the trunk.

Thank you for the advice about how to takeoff those branches in a way that may not leave as bad of scarring!

 

[Japonicus]

Perfect, now your location and grow zone will help folks give a better response as to when to perform specific tasks.

Thank you for the advice about how to takeoff those branches in a way that may not leave as bad of scarring!

Sure but I was not detailed nor specific. It's hard telling which branches you'll keep
but as long as you remove half a branch or down to an inch depending on whether you'll remove it flush
eventually or jin it, the tree will take care of it much easier and safer. If you cut it flush now, there's a higher risk
of the tree having a larger area of dieback before it compartmentalizes the area.
A stub only has a wound the size of the diameter of the branch, and the length of the stub is a safety mechanism.
A sharp cut is best, and is safe to do now. You have the Winter and Spring to play the wiring tutorial Colin Lewis gives in
that link to Craftsy above. I would not remove the wire as the tree rebounds from the damage.
It is possible the tree has more damage from wiring, (since the wiring is applied ineffectively) than we know.
You'll want to use a heavier gauge annealed copper wire than the aluminum used, and coiled at ~60º.
As applied now, it does not hold well, and to get what hold you can, the branch can be excessively overworked.
Given this possibility, I would want someone more experienced to advise on whorl work, whether to wait
and just let the tree recover being your 1st pine or not. I truly doubt it is a corker. I have a 'Brocade' and it's much
more corky. Corkers are very fickle about how much work you do on them compared to regular Thunbergi.

 

[Shibui]

All the photos have been taken looking down on the tree so it is hard for us to assess the trunk and branch arrangement. Some photos from above are good for perspective but some from right in front are important too.

Mundane bonsai are made quickly by using what is already there. Better bonsai are made by using only the best parts of the current tree and growing what is needed. Many great bonsai have actually been started by trunk chopping and replacing the trunk with a well placed side branch. Developing good bonsai requires lots of time as well as some vision and technique.

The whorls of branches on pines are always a problem. Left alone they will become an even bigger problem as the trunk at that level swells excessively. Best practice is to only have one single branch at each level. Sometimes it is necessary to retain 2 branches but that should only be considered if no alternative.
The trunk appears to be like so many other fast grown commercial starter trees with little taper. It may even have reverse taper at the upper whorl of branches. It is possible to counter thickened areas with dead wood and/or carving the trunk but most often removing the section is better then replace with a convenient side branch.

Removing branches will leave some scars. You have the choice to incorporate the scar in the design as a feature or to manage them well so they heal in time. How long that takes is a function of many factors - species, technique, climate, culture.
I am normally happy to cut branches flush at the outset. I have not experienced dieback when pruning pines. Sealing cuts does seem to help with healing of scars if you don't want visible marks. Allow in the rest of the tree to grow more also helps scars heal as the trunk thickens.

 

[Drjd]

Thank you for the great responses!

Perfect, now your location and grow zone will help folks give a better response as to when to perform specific tasks.


Sure but I was not detailed nor specific. It's hard telling which branches you'll keep
but as long as you remove half a branch or down to an inch depending on whether you'll remove it flush
eventually or jin it, the tree will take care of it much easier and safer. If you cut it flush now, there's a higher risk
of the tree having a larger area of dieback before it compartmentalizes the area.
A stub only has a wound the size of the diameter of the branch, and the length of the stub is a safety mechanism.
A sharp cut is best, and is safe to do now. You have the Winter and Spring to play the wiring tutorial Colin Lewis gives in
that link to Craftsy above. I would not remove the wire as the tree rebounds from the damage.
It is possible the tree has more damage from wiring, (since the wiring is applied ineffectively) than we know.
You'll want to use a heavier gauge annealed copper wire than the aluminum used, and coiled at ~60º.
As applied now, it does not hold well, and to get what hold you can, the branch can be excessively overworked.
Given this possibility, I would want someone more experienced to advise on whorl work, whether to wait
and just let the tree recover being your 1st pine or not. I truly doubt it is a corker. I have a 'Brocade' and it's much
more corky. Corkers are very fickle about how much work you do on them compared to regular Thunbergi.

I got the tree at plant city bonsai in Georgia. The owner said it was a cork bark, which he explained was hard to find normally. I was referred there from this forum in hopes of getting a good black pine when I was passing through Georgia. Do you think he was wrong and it’s just a regular Japanese black pine?

 

[Japonicus]

Do you think he was wrong and it’s just a regular Japanese black pine?

No, Steve is pretty knowledgable. I bought 3 or 4 juniper and hinoki from him last Fall.

 

[Gabler]

I never realized temperate pines could live that far south.

 

[Japonicus]

I never realized temperate pines could live that far south.

You are right zone 5-8. Adaptive to 10? IDK. May be like trying to keep a mugo in southern Alabama.
This should have been discussed with Steve at time of purchase. When I asked him about trees I was
first and foremost interested in cold hardiness coming from North of him. It is the buyers responsibility
to inquire, a seller may assume the buyer is local...

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Some points made above are very good.
1. it’s not likely to last long in your SW FL location, but it’s worth a try.
2. the growth pattern is natural, but not useful for bonsai, so you do need to prune.
3. pruning will cause some scarring, which can be messy with corkers. Best done early...like now.
4. yes, it sure looks like a corker...maybe a Kyoto Yatsabusa. I have a thread on mine here. Mine is fickle, and actually in the ground now for a few years to gain some strength.

On to yours.
1. The spoke growth pattern is the “Yatsabusa” trait...many buds from each tip. On branches you’re keeping, it is important to reduce the number of buds at the tip of each shoot down to 2. Do this now. Keep buds that are the same size; which means keeping the larger buds in the lower branches and keeping the smaller buds on the upper branches. By example, I’d remove the larger center bud and keep a small pair at the base in the photo below:

2. Reduce the whorls of branches down to 1 or 2 at each junction on the trunk. This can be done now too. Cut them back to stubs that are 1” long, then “whittle the stub back to the trunk so the stubs are pointed, and the cut at the cooler of the trunk is clean. This will help the cork develop a little more naturally around the whittled stubs.

3. Very carefully remove that wire. It is aluminum and too thin and tightly-applied to have any real or positive effect. At most, guy-wire (search for the technique here or on my site) the primary branches, and wire the small shoots to fan out the tips of each terminal so they have some space in the sunshine, and are turned ever so slightly up. @Adair M has posted plenty of photos of his trees and sheets of the technique. Search here to see these.

4. I do not candle-cut my corkers in the summer. They simply cannot handle the stress, and do not respond well for me. So be patient, and realize these aren’t good starter pines at all...in fact they’re not great bonsai subjects; but rather a novelty to enjoy, which can be maintained in a pot with fall pruning and bud selection. Here is a post showing this fall work:

Styling a Corkbark Black Pine, ‘Taihei’ part 3

The previous installment is here: This year, the Taihei was left to grow unchecked until mid-September. Here is the starting point, and in fact, the first photo I took of the tree this year…r…

nebaribonsai.wordpress.com

Best of luck.

 

[PeaceLoveBonsai]

Some points made above are very good.
1. it’s not likely to last long in your SW FL location, but it’s worth a try.
2. the growth pattern is natural, but not useful for bonsai, so you do need to prune.
3. pruning will cause some scarring, which can be messy with corkers. Best done early...like now.
4. yes, it sure looks like a corker...maybe a Kyoto Yatsabusa. I have a thread on mine here. Mine is fickle, and actually in the ground now for a few years to gain some strength.

On to yours.
1. The spoke growth pattern is the “Yatsabusa” trait...many buds from each tip. On branches you’re keeping, it is important to reduce the number of buds at the tip of each shoot down to 2. Do this now. Keep buds that are the same size; which means keeping the larger buds in the lower branches and keeping the smaller buds on the upper branches. By example, I’d remove the larger center bud and keep a small pair at the base in the photo below:
View attachment 345472
2. Reduce the whorls of branches down to 1 or 2 at each junction on the trunk. This can be done now too. Cut them back to stubs that are 1” long, then “whittle the stub back to the trunk so the stubs are pointed, and the cut at the cooler of the trunk is clean. This will help the cork develop a little more naturally around the whittled stubs.
View attachment 345471
3. Very carefully remove that wire. It is aluminum and too thin and tightly-applied to have any real or positive effect. At most, guy-wire (search for the technique here or on my site) the primary branches, and wire the small shoots to fan out the tips of each terminal so they have some space in the sunshine, and are turned ever so slightly up. @Adair M has posted plenty of photos of his trees and sheets of the technique. Search here to see these.

4. I do not candle-cut my corkers in the summer. They simply cannot handle the stress, and do not respond well for me. So be patient, and realize these aren’t good starter pines at all...in fact they’re not great bonsai subjects; but rather a novelty to enjoy, which can be maintained in a pot with fall pruning and bud selection. Here is a post showing this fall work:

Styling a Corkbark Black Pine, ‘Taihei’ part 3

The previous installment is here: This year, the Taihei was left to grow unchecked until mid-September. Here is the starting point, and in fact, the first photo I took of the tree this year…r…

nebaribonsai.wordpress.com

Best of luck.

It’s hard to put into words how on-point this advice is. If I were you, I would consider printing it off in reverse, then stapling it to my forehead so I could read it every morning when I look in the mirror. But that’s just me.

 

[Gabler]

You are right zone 5-8. Adaptive to 10? IDK. May be like trying to keep a mugo in southern Alabama.
This should have been discussed with Steve at time of purchase. When I asked him about trees I was
first and foremost interested in cold hardiness coming from North of him. It is the buyers responsibility
to inquire, a seller may assume the buyer is local...

Are there techniques to simulate winter? Moving the tree to partial shade, maybe? Watering with blocks of ice? An air-conditioned greenhouse?

 

[Drjd]

No, Steve is pretty knowledgable. I bought 3 or 4 juniper and hinoki from him last Fall.

Great! Yes he was really helpful. I also bought a shimpaku juniper that is fantastic. I was very happy with Plant city bonsai. In all honesty I am just disappointed in my selection of black pine. I was in a time crunch and was not able to really evaluate the tree selection. I had my whole family waiting for me in the car to finish a 9 hour drive, so time was not on my side. Clearly this is a bad situation to try and choose a tree, and the situation was made worse because I am new to bonsai and pines. On top of that there were not many black pines to select from that were thicker than pencils (they had already sold many of the others). I was very excited to have my first JBP and have been waiting a while to work with one. Sadly there is a clear inverse taper that will be hard to correct unless Im lucky and a branch forms at the base. The tree is very straight and has no real taper (except the inverse taper) and no movement, again things I see very clearly when Im not rushing. I saw many branches and thought it would give me more options for my design, but since I was rushing I did not evaluate how the branches were arranged.

You are right zone 5-8. Adaptive to 10? IDK. May be like trying to keep a mugo in southern Alabama.
This should have been discussed with Steve at time of purchase. When I asked him about trees I was
first and foremost interested in cold hardiness coming from North of him. It is the buyers responsibility
to inquire, a seller may assume the buyer is local...

I never realized temperate pines could live that far south.

This is true, i'm not sure the tree will thrive and technically many sources state they do not grown in southwest Florida. I have read success stories though, and I called Wigerts Bonsai which is here in southwest Florida and they occasionally sell JBP there here and said they do fine here. I have a fascination with the JBP, and I wanted to try with one tree to see if I could make it work. I am keeping my expectations tempered though as I know I am not giving it the best conditions.

Some points made above are very good.
1. it’s not likely to last long in your SW FL location, but it’s worth a try.
2. the growth pattern is natural, but not useful for bonsai, so you do need to prune.
3. pruning will cause some scarring, which can be messy with corkers. Best done early...like now.
4. yes, it sure looks like a corker...maybe a Kyoto Yatsabusa. I have a thread on mine here. Mine is fickle, and actually in the ground now for a few years to gain some strength.

On to yours.
1. The spoke growth pattern is the “Yatsabusa” trait...many buds from each tip. On branches you’re keeping, it is important to reduce the number of buds at the tip of each shoot down to 2. Do this now. Keep buds that are the same size; which means keeping the larger buds in the lower branches and keeping the smaller buds on the upper branches. By example, I’d remove the larger center bud and keep a small pair at the base in the photo below:
View attachment 345472
2. Reduce the whorls of branches down to 1 or 2 at each junction on the trunk. This can be done now too. Cut them back to stubs that are 1” long, then “whittle the stub back to the trunk so the stubs are pointed, and the cut at the cooler of the trunk is clean. This will help the cork develop a little more naturally around the whittled stubs.
View attachment 345471
3. Very carefully remove that wire. It is aluminum and too thin and tightly-applied to have any real or positive effect. At most, guy-wire (search for the technique here or on my site) the primary branches, and wire the small shoots to fan out the tips of each terminal so they have some space in the sunshine, and are turned ever so slightly up. @Adair M has posted plenty of photos of his trees and sheets of the technique. Search here to see these.

4. I do not candle-cut my corkers in the summer. They simply cannot handle the stress, and do not respond well for me. So be patient, and realize these aren’t good starter pines at all...in fact they’re not great bonsai subjects; but rather a novelty to enjoy, which can be maintained in a pot with fall pruning and bud selection. Here is a post showing this fall work:

Styling a Corkbark Black Pine, ‘Taihei’ part 3

The previous installment is here: This year, the Taihei was left to grow unchecked until mid-September. Here is the starting point, and in fact, the first photo I took of the tree this year…r…

nebaribonsai.wordpress.com

Best of luck.

Thank you for the incredible and detailed response! I really appreciate the time you took to mark the photos and organize such in depth advise. As peacelovebonsai said I am going to print this out and keep it where I do my bonsai work. I have removed the wire already as advised with no obvious damage thankfully.
I know the tree may not do well in my area but given my interest in JBP and the success some people have had near me I wanted to try. Unfortunately I chose a difficult black pine to start with. Despite how disappointed I am in my selection, I want to try to make something out of this tree.

I have two final question regarding your advice.
1) I have reduced the bottom branches just as you have shown in the photo. I would like to make the cut on the top section as you have drawn but my concern is that too many cuts could cause more damage to a tree that I hear is already finicky (from what I have read and been told). I believe you are saying it should be safe to perform this work now, is that correct? (I understand that there is not way to be perfectly sure and anything I do is a risk, especially given my location)
2) I have read that for my location in SW Florida the first week of July is when I should cut candles (on a normal JBP) and during the winter is when I bud select down to two buds. If you do not cut candles in summer, are you doing all your work during the winter?

 

[Adair M]

You can shorten overly strong candles in the spring, if you like.

Cork bark JBP put a lot of their growing efforts into making bark, not “growing” per se. Therefore, they are not as vigorous as normal JBP. You can decandle them, but not every year. Maybe every other or every third year. If it grows really strongly in the spring, you might consider decandling that summer. If not, don’t.

Fertilize heavily all spring. All year, really.

Use a well draining soil mix. Water often. Spray with a copper fungicide.

 

[Japonicus]

Well you certainly have your hands full.
With Adair and Brians help (as well as some input from your local retailer and bonsai clubs for general horticulture)
you should be able to make the best of the situation. Adair and Brian as you can see can guide you better
at seasonal tasks and development, your local clubs for input on surviving your climate.
Adding ice cubes to the soil will not replace dormancy. Most folks do not have room in a fridge to overwinter one either
and buying a refrigerator for just that is clearly not an option.

they had already sold many of the others

This one was picked over for reasons you've mentioned.
That is where the pencil thin ones would have been a better choice this go round for cost and learning.
He had a really small leafed elm, and when I asked him about zone hardiness
I apologized at his answer and said I'd have to pass, then when he showed me his Coastal Redwoods
he knew to caution me likewise, because my temperatures were too cold for it or borderline at best.

I personally often do not remove wire if I'm not happy with how I did it because I've seen branches
decline from overworking them, and removing wire often flexes the branches even more,
however this decline I've seen from overworking branches has been with juniper and hinoki.
My corker is maybe 5 yrs from graft, I've yet to wire it. I do a little work removing branches and needles, then come back
at a later date and do more. So far it has not declined, but I need to do more. When I'm cautioned by
the pros here to work it slower than other pines, I get paranoid and put it in "granny gear".

How about taking some more pictures, and at level with the pot looking straight on.
Picture the inverse taper and the nebari from different views.

 

[Japonicus]

Copper training wire

Here is a great supplier for your annealed copper wire.
Super great folks!

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

1) I have reduced the bottom branches just as you have shown in the photo. I would like to make the cut on the top section as you have drawn but my concern is that too many cuts could cause more damage to a tree that I hear is already finicky (from what I have read and been told). I believe you are saying it should be safe to perform this work now, is that correct? (I understand that there is not way to be perfectly sure and anything I do is a risk, especially given my location)
2) I have read that for my location in SW Florida the first week of July is when I should cut candles (on a normal JBP) and during the winter is when I bud select down to two buds. If you do not cut candles in summer, are you doing all your work during the winter?

1. it should be ok to cut it back as I showed, but you certainly don’t have to cut it all now. It may look a bit goofy after cutting so it won’t hurt much to stop at some point while it still looks ok, and wait until spring to cut more. Do perform bud selection now.

2. I do not advise candle cutting corkbark black pines. I have done it and don’t do it anymore. Can you do it every couple years, yes. But I haven’t gotten good results. Candle-cutting is done to shorten needles and internodes, and increase ramification. But when I candle-cut corkers, it ends up setting back development instead...buds set instead of shoots forming, and the disparity between strong and weak areas magnifies. I also see dieback instead of density. So most of my work on corkers is done in the fall: pruning, wiring, needle-pulling, and bud selecting.

 

[Drjd]

Well, after everything I decided to go for it. Here are my final photos. I really did try to follow the advice given so if there are obvious defects please know I will be keeping all the advice close to heart and working on improving my technique. This was the last day of my vacation and my last chance to really sit down and work on this tree for a while. The chance of survival may not be high but I used this as a learning experience and despite my initial disappointment, I am currently happy with the potential this tree now has (if it survives). Again, im happy with what I have now given my skill level, and the issues I faced. This definitely illuminated the areas I’m lacking in, starting with pre-bonsai material selection. My wiring is still not optimal on many branches but I had to avoid removing some and damaging the branches. This is also something I will study harder and practice at. I really appreciate all the fantastic help and I will review all your posts over and over.

 

[Adair M]

well, I have to say that I admire your courage and enthusiasm.

But, I think you tried to do too much, too fast. Pines take time to develop. Now, you need to leave it alone and let it grow.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Way to jump right in. Yes, a lot of work pretty quick, and I agree with Adair; time now to let this one recover for the next year or so. Repeat the bud selection and pruning whorls back to pairs in October 2021, and repot in February 2022. Of course this means you will need to go buy a couple more JBP to keep you occupied.