NOZZLE HEAD
Shohin
Maples have stomata on both sides of the leaf.
Bloodgood Japanese maple help!
- Thread starter Marty626
- Start date
Forsoothe!
Imperial Masterpiece
Don't stop there with a bullshit shortcut. Exactly how many on either side? The underside has more than enough to transpire. Yes? No? A full explanation, or shut up.
Bonsai Nut
Nuttier than your average Nut
Having lived in SoCal for 24 years I feel your pain.
You can keep your bloodgood in full sun in the spring... until the first Santa Ana. If you don't protect your tree when that hot dry wind blows, your leaves will start to burn. A couple of days of bad Santa Anas and your Japanese maples may fully defoliate. They may push one more round of growth, but if that one burns too your tree will be dead. The only successful people with Japanese maples in SoCal that I know of keep their trees sheltered close to a building that cuts the wind, particularly if they also have shade cloth. You won't find a nursery selling Japanese maples in SoCal without them being under shade cloth and there's a reason.
There are two other problems you're going to have to watch. First, Japanese maples like loamy, slightly acidic soil. It is the exact opposite of the crappy alkaline clay that most people have in SoCal. If you plant in your landscape make sure to use an acidic soil amendment like pine bark mulch. Also consider using an acid fertilizer like Super Iron 9-9-9.
The second problem you're going to have is with your water. La Puente water (according to the water district) has a pH of 7.9 (alkaline). Maples really require acidic water. The only way you will get water that has lower than 7.0 pH is if you use a water softener. Otherwise if you water your maples with crappy SoCal water, your trees will be very unhappy. Once again, using a soil acidifier like Super Iron will help. But one thing you will certainly notice - the day after a heavy rain your maples will look amazingly healthy. Rainwater has a pH of about 5.6.
You can keep your bloodgood in full sun in the spring... until the first Santa Ana. If you don't protect your tree when that hot dry wind blows, your leaves will start to burn. A couple of days of bad Santa Anas and your Japanese maples may fully defoliate. They may push one more round of growth, but if that one burns too your tree will be dead. The only successful people with Japanese maples in SoCal that I know of keep their trees sheltered close to a building that cuts the wind, particularly if they also have shade cloth. You won't find a nursery selling Japanese maples in SoCal without them being under shade cloth and there's a reason.
There are two other problems you're going to have to watch. First, Japanese maples like loamy, slightly acidic soil. It is the exact opposite of the crappy alkaline clay that most people have in SoCal. If you plant in your landscape make sure to use an acidic soil amendment like pine bark mulch. Also consider using an acid fertilizer like Super Iron 9-9-9.
The second problem you're going to have is with your water. La Puente water (according to the water district) has a pH of 7.9 (alkaline). Maples really require acidic water. The only way you will get water that has lower than 7.0 pH is if you use a water softener. Otherwise if you water your maples with crappy SoCal water, your trees will be very unhappy. Once again, using a soil acidifier like Super Iron will help. But one thing you will certainly notice - the day after a heavy rain your maples will look amazingly healthy. Rainwater has a pH of about 5.6.
NOZZLE HEAD
Shohin
No. In full sun on a warm day all the stomata are functioning at 100% capacity.
The link is to a journal article that describes exactly how many stomata are on the adaxial (that means top) surface of a leaf of red maple. You can’t assume that a Japanese maple has the the exact same amount of stomata, but all members of a genus will have a trend of similarities.
Botany 2015 - Stomatal density/carbon dioxide leaf peel study for three woody plant species in the Mississippi Delta
Carbon dioxide is an important greenhouse gas and is associated with global warming. Atmospheric levels of CO<sub>2</sub> have i
2015.botanyconference.org
If you think I’m wrong about something be ready to back it up.
Forsoothe!
Imperial Masterpiece
You are full of crap. Show me data that says water droplets prevent transpiration to the point of damaging the plant, or at all. And, we're still talking about a city in the Santa Ana vortex of evil dry winds. At such a place the droplets will evaporate while you watch. Not everybody lives in a rainforest.
Mikecheck123
Omono
I'd also like to note that on occasion, in some areas, it rains on trees.
NOZZLE HEAD
Shohin
No. You are being unpleasant.
NOZZLE HEAD
Shohin
In areas with high temperatures that get heavy rain on sunny days I would expect the plants to be adapted to those conditions.
Schmikah
Shohin
Yes, stomata. So water droplets setting on top of a leaf has little to no affect on transpiration.
Also @NOZZLE HEAD , I'm pretty sure transpiration releases dissolved O2 gas, not monoatomic (free radical) oxygen.
NOZZLE HEAD
Shohin
Water is the primary substance leaving the stomata and it literally drags everything with it, when it can’t evaporate the the chemistry in the cells gets all out of balance. Monoatomic oxygen has been hypothesized as the culprit, but hey I never actually saw the free radicals myself. The whole class of PPO inhibitor herbicides force the buildup of naturally produced (in the chloroplasts) peroxides by enzyme inhibition, and that kills the cells. A similar imbalance happens when photosynthesis is firing on all cylinders and the exhaust pipe is plugged. That is why dormant oil is called dormant oil.
I have seen water droplets burn leaves, many times, on many plant species and the conditions line up.
Also I don’t get where the idea that there aren’t stomata on the top of leaves comes from.
Mikecheck123
Omono
This weekend is going to be very hot and very sunny. I have sprayed all my Japanese maples until they are dripping wet to see if I can damage them.
Schmikah
Shohin
There is stomata on the top of leaves, just not even close to the same number as on the bottom. Secondly, I know cohesion is the driving force that pulls water from the roots up to and out of the stomata. However, evaporation doesn't stop when liquid is applied, temporarily, to the leaf. There is still a cohesive connection through the stomata (as long as the cohesive chain has not been broken by dry soil) with water on the leaves.
If liquid water on leaves caused burning due to peroxide build up, you could go into the forest after a rainfall when the sun shines directly afterword (which happens almost everyday during the summer in coastal south carolina) during the heat of the afternoon, and see this condition. However, you do not generally observe this.
Now, it might be that allowing soil to dry out too much, thus the stomata begin to close, then liquid water is applied to the leaves which would do absolutely nothing to help the plant cool as there is no cohesive bond with the internal water chain, then might cause issues.
Deep Sea Diver
Masterpiece
Wow, that’s a lot folks... How about zeroing in on the origin of the spots on the leaves, which seem to have been put aside in the conversation? Let’s neglect location as I believe I’ve seen them on Maples like Bloodgood up here in the Seattle area during the summer.
Fungus? Go for the Serenade?
Cheers,
DSD sends
(The water droplet hypothesis discussion was interesting, I was actually reading Michael Hagedorn’s new book Bonsai Heresy where he states this hypothesis is not valid for various reasons. A month ago I read the same thing in another book that I haven’t close at hand).
Fungus? Go for the Serenade?
Cheers,
DSD sends
(The water droplet hypothesis discussion was interesting, I was actually reading Michael Hagedorn’s new book Bonsai Heresy where he states this hypothesis is not valid for various reasons. A month ago I read the same thing in another book that I haven’t close at hand).
Deep Sea Diver
Masterpiece
Looks like I got lucky on a google search, which almost never happens right away.
How about this....?
https://www.walterreeves.com/gardening-q-and-a/japanese-maple-white-spots-on-leaves/
Maybe going for the Serenade isn’t necessary in the
is case.
How about this....?
https://www.walterreeves.com/gardening-q-and-a/japanese-maple-white-spots-on-leaves/
Maybe going for the Serenade isn’t necessary in the
is case.
Mikecheck123
Omono
Two failed attempts during the hottest and sunniest part of the day today. I'll try harder tomorrow. I want this to be a real thing. I just don't think it is.
Schmikah
Shohin
While I agree, appreciate, and applaud your efforts, obviously to put this thing to bed, we're gonna need multiple days of photographic evidence.
Forsoothe!
Imperial Masterpiece
He doesn't really need more episodes to disprove the "lens damage" concept which is faulty in the first place. Internal damage due to free radical toxicity needs to be demonstrated or documented by the party of the forth part. (Citing long-winded parallel studies of tissue damage to water buffalo will be ignored)
Marty626
Sapling
you’re absolutely right! We had a random rain day in between these past couple of hot weeks and they were looking a little better or maybe it was all hope, but this past week has been pretty hot and dry here and they don’t look like they’re getting better but also not worse I’ll be watching em closely, thank you for all the information I will look into getting some of that super iron fertilizer, as for the soil I dug a hole and mixed in a little bit of potting soil with organic mulch from a family Members stash some lava rock and small pea pebbles with a layer of pebbles at the bottom reason why I did that was cause I have some of that shitty clay soil in my back yard, I really hope they make it
