Bonsai aesthetic

[Poink88]

Says who ? What do you base this on ? Every once in a while someone on this forum chimes in about Fibonacci, golden ratios, and phi. Do just a little research and read something written by a real mathematician. Anyone that says these ratios are present in sunflower heads and nautilus shells ( or trees ) is kidding themselves.

I apologize to Dirty Nails and mbpauley...I think you both became targets because of me.

Davetree...no one mentioned sunflower heads and nautilus shells but you. If you've read bonsai books discussing design, you would have encountered both (Fibonacci and Golden ratio) mentioned on lots of them. Some are simplified (using round numbers) but the origin is there.

 

[GrimLore]

Back to basics - If it makes YOU happy do it. I understand it is great to have a tree that is prized and is worthy of show. I thought going in that this hobby was to make me happy and NO MATTER what anyone says it does and I abide by no rules... What the hell is the problem with being happy and NOT turning an awesome way of life into a competition?

PLEASE tell me...

 

[october]

Back to basics - If it makes YOU happy do it. I understand it is great to have a tree that is prized and is worthy of show. I thought going in that this hobby was to make me happy and NO MATTER what anyone says it does and I abide by no rules... What the hell is the problem with being happy and NOT turning an awesome way of life into a competition?

PLEASE tell me...

I would imagine it is like everything. All (well, most) artists want to have their work displayed and admired. Scientist want to have their findings published and respected. Tradesmen want to have their work known and have a great reputation..etc..

Rob

 

[davetree]

I apologize to Dirty Nails and mbpauley...I think you both became targets because of me.

Davetree...no one mentioned sunflower heads and nautilus shells but you. If you've read bonsai books discussing design, you would have encountered both (Fibonacci and Golden ratio) mentioned on lots of them. Some are simplified (using round numbers) but the origin is there.

Actually you did mention it by directing readers to google "Fibonacci numbers in nature". i did and the first images i saw were the classic examples are the nautilus shell, the peacocks tail, and the head of a sunflower. None of which represent a Fibonacci sequence.

 

[october]

Here is practically everything ,proprotion wise, you need to know about creating nice bonsai. I promise there are no sunflowers in this link..lol

Rob

http://www.evergreengardenworks.com/rules.htm

 

[Poink88]

Actually you did mention it by directing readers to google "Fibonacci numbers in nature". i did and the first images i saw were the classic examples are the nautilus shell, the peacocks tail, and the head of a sunflower. None of which represent a Fibonacci sequence.

LOL. I am simply amazed by your reasoning.

 

[will0911]

I don't necessarily think people "break" rules when they do something different. Maybe they just add onto or create a new one that wasn't thought of before. Just because you don't have this or that doesn't mean you're breaking rules. Maybe you're just adding and/or to one or more of them. These "rules were created a long time ago. Possibly these rules are all they could think of at the time.

Personally i think when the rules are followed to a t the tree is just average. Mother nature makes, adds to, "breaks", creates, etc. her own rules as well, and she is the one making all the trees in the first place.

I think to truly make something beautiful it has to have a balance of design (math), your own self within the tree (style), has to make sense on a horticultural level (sometimes), and then the rest is probably luck. Some trees just grow into a great tree while others don't.

I don't think someone can just map out a tree on a graph and it add up perfectly to an aesthetically pleasing image. There needs to be feelings and emotion and soul. I am also a musician, and i don't play music perfectly it would sound so plain and boring (i play the blues and reggae mostly). Blues is about feeling and pain and raw emotion. Not about being perfect and every note mapped out and precisely struck. Might as well have a robot playing it.

I do agree on that one has to know the background and understand the origins of whatever design, art, etc. they are trying to produce, but again i don't think in learning you have to perfectly execute the "rules" 100% until you're "able" to deviate on your own. I honestly think these rules are designed for people who aren't very artistic or have never seen a bonsai and need some sort of way to "judge" them over others and simply can't without rules to guide them. On the other hand i think for the artistically gifted these rules can be limiting if followed word for word.

 

[Anthony]

Actually, it is good to do a few trees according to the rules on Brent Walston's page. Mind you it is doubtful, that you would get it mathematically exact.
The reason being that it would give you the experience needed to move onto the next stage.

If you understand a single species well enough, you can actually draw a tree into reality and base the composition of your tree on your drawing.

The mathematical bit that was being discussed does not work simply because within living shapes, there is a given amount of differences, which may or may not lead to a design's failure. So if a nautilus shell goes too far genetically to the left or right, it may just not function properly, same for sunflower heads.
I think the Greeks and early philosophers tried to reason out a world on mostly eyesight, and only later as we looked deeper, did anyone have the ability to say, it really is not so.

So for my part it is simple mass first, then you look closer to see trunk, root, branches, branchlets. With that in mind negative space becomes very important.
Thus growing a seedling, roots, trunk and branches are tended to in that order.
Good Evening.
Anthony

 

[catfish chapstick]

I'm not talking about the so-called rules of bonsai. Tons of examples of not following the rules leading to a good outcome... Not what I meant.

I was trying to think about trees in an entirely different way. As algorithms with a touch of spontaneity. In the spirit of fractal geometry.

Here is an image of human lungs

 

[evmibo]

Have you read Andy's book? here: http://andyrutledge.com/book/index.html

He discusses several of these issues in the book.

I can't thank you enough for linking this.

 

[Vance Wood]

I know, that's my point. It can be applied to bonsai but it can't, or probably shouldn't be geometrically sound or it would look too artificial. Find a balance between geometry and variation? Or a ratio of geometry to chaos? A lot of bonsai don't look natural because of too little or too much geometry... I'm hoping for opinions on this.

The only mathematical discipline that consistently applies to bonsai or living things is fractal geometry.

 

[Paradox]

Back to basics - If it makes YOU happy do it. I understand it is great to have a tree that is prized and is worthy of show. I thought going in that this hobby was to make me happy and NO MATTER what anyone says it does and I abide by no rules... What the hell is the problem with being happy and NOT turning an awesome way of life into a competition?

PLEASE tell me...

^This

Math sucks, I took waaaay too many math classes in highschool and college for my liking.
I have to do enough thinking at work and just don't want to think this hard about bonsai.

 

[Anthony]

Paradox,

if you just drew or even drew off of photographs with tracing paper, your memory would begin to retain what impressed you in Nature.

Frequently, a tree will have parts that are pleasing, but not the whole tree.

So your memory will recompose a new tree.

Using what we call in Art a simple mass drawing Charcoal on grey paper, you can create a pleasing shape.
Growing the effort will further add new properties and an even more pleasing tree can emerge.

The trees come mostly from imagination and the tree just growing.
Good Day.
Anthony

 

[Paradox]

Exactly

I spend lots of time just looking at trees, I doodle them at times as well.
The brain kinda goes into neutral for a change. When I work on my trees, its nice to just concentrate on the tree and not get overly technical.

BTW I am a scientist by occupation. Thinkng doesn't scare me, I do a lot of it.
The brain just needs to shift into a different gear for a while sometimes.

 

[Poink88]

Exactly

I spend lots of time just looking at trees, I doodle them at times as well.
The brain kinda goes into neutral for a change. When I work on my trees, its nice to just concentrate on the tree and not get overly technical.

BTW I am a scientist by occupation. Thinkng doesn't scare me, I do a lot of it.
The brain just needs to shift into a different gear for a while sometimes.

I do the same but you/we are probably doing exactly what mbpauley said...
"you would likely find this ratio more abundantly...though the person designing the tree may never have had this specific ratio in mind in the first place."

 

[Anthony]

Dario,

in Fine Art, it is called an awareness of Beauty.
It can be conscious, or unconscious, and learnt so well that it's application is second nature.
But it is normally after the idea has been expressed and finished, that one can attempt to find the Secret Geometry.

When it is attempted as geometry first, the idea usually comes out very mechanical in appearance.
Good Morning.
Anthony

.

 

[catfish chapstick]

It can be conscious, or unconscious, and learnt so well that it's application is second nature.

When it is attempted as geometry first, the idea usually comes out very mechanical in appearance.

.

This is probably true. I think the same thing about calligraphy. I think with trees it's the imperfections that make it non-mechanical.

I'm not meaning to imply geometric perfection. More like a calculated deviation from geometry while still holding onto that blueprint. I don't disagree with most of the things that have been said. Can there be some measure of naturalness vs. mechanical? There does seem to be a spectrum.

 

[catfish chapstick]

Back to basics - If it makes YOU happy do it. I understand it is great to have a tree that is prized and is worthy of show. I thought going in that this hobby was to make me happy and NO MATTER what anyone says it does and I abide by no rules... What the hell is the problem with being happy and NOT turning an awesome way of life into a competition?

PLEASE tell me...

I'm not interested in being competitive. I just want to make some trees. Part of my journey is trying to see underneath all the techniques, rules, trends, and myths to decide for myself what is the nature of the nature of trees by thinking about the way I'm thinking. And the trees are nice to look at

 

[GrimLore]

I'm not interested in being competitive. I just want to make some trees. Part of my journey is trying to see underneath all the techniques, rules, trends, and myths to decide for myself what is the nature of the nature of trees by thinking about the way I'm thinking. And the trees are nice to look at

I am guessing you could find a program the would allow you to put a pic into it and let it generate a fractal image giving you a lot of different results perhaps?

 

[Anthony]

Catfish,

it normally takes 3 to 5 years to learn how to keep a tree alive/healthy and then another 5 to 10 to understand how to put / get - roots - limbs - branchlets, where they are supposed to be.

If you are lucky, you settle on say 5 trees / shrubs of types that you can work with and inspire you.

For example - Ulmus, Acer, Pinus, and so on and within that group - say 1 type of Elm - say Catlin, one type of Acer - Trident, one type of Pine - say Japanese Black Pine.

Even within this seeming limtation, there are individual qualites, so even say 10 Catlin's will most likely have 10 different personalities.

Even if you only had 50 trees as listed above, you would be learning at such an expanded level, it would take time.

Then you get to the guidelines and how to use them to get something that feels correct/pleasing and may look so natural, as have no suggestion of training.
Probably something like 20 years with an experienced teacher who can create trees that look like what you are after.

Or longer if you are doing it on your own.

You can probably jump some of this if you took a wired frame and built plastercene over it.
Using all the guidelines / rules here.
Observing proportions and taking notes.
Down here it was observed that if you understood the tree, one could draw it into reality.

In other words - drawing -> seedling / cutting / collected stump -> Bonsai tree over so many years.

There is no way to get past ---- experience ---- in order to do Bonsai.

Most waste the 3 to 5 years learning to keep the tree alive, by trying to wire/prune/ carve and do experiments that do nothing to help with learning about HEALTH.

They also seldom purchase/obtain enough trees to experiment on. Instead taking their best tree and more or less killing it.
This is why down here the beginning figure treewise is somewhere around 300 or so efforts.

You can bypass this with strong discipline and a teacher. No experiments on your best trees.

AND this is why, most give up on bonsai or end up with so so trees.
It is all very similar to when one goes to an Atelier / Studio school and just does what one is told to do, saving the personality for private attempts at home. Shown cautiously to the teacher.
Good Day.
Anthony