So no long wait time in a USA station like it used to be?
Bonsai auctions and “imported” trees. Legal or not?
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Glaucus
Chumono
If a tree has a phytosanitary certificate valid for the US, then it is already been ruled pest-free in Japan and accepted as such by USDA.
So that process then is already being taken care of. But say that the Japanese government wants to donate a bonsai to say the bonsai museum in DC. Then this tree has no phytosanitary certificate and then indeed it will have to start going through this process. Either in Japan or at some US USDA quarantine center. Which is like the old quarantine method, I believe. Since Japan has nurseries now that target the EU and the US, they have stock they can export right away. Either because their entire nursery has been certified pest-free. Or because they have special greenhouses with air locks that are pest-free. Which gives those bonsai a valid certificate.
They still would need to be bare-rooted for the US. And there may be restrictions on some species. And states vary. And bare-rooting is best done at a set point in the year. But in general, that is how it works.
Of course, you have to pay for the inspections that need to be done either in Japan or in the US, to make sure the certification is valid and the plants match the certificate. So there is a price involved.
But if the Japanese seller knows how to export to the US. And you contact USDA beforehand, it isn't a difficult as the old method.
I have been trying to understand when this changed. Or if some US bonsai importers just want to buy and import trees that don't have valid paperwork from nurseries in Japan that don't know how to export to Japan.
But I wasn't able to figure this out from the US members here.
So that process then is already being taken care of. But say that the Japanese government wants to donate a bonsai to say the bonsai museum in DC. Then this tree has no phytosanitary certificate and then indeed it will have to start going through this process. Either in Japan or at some US USDA quarantine center. Which is like the old quarantine method, I believe. Since Japan has nurseries now that target the EU and the US, they have stock they can export right away. Either because their entire nursery has been certified pest-free. Or because they have special greenhouses with air locks that are pest-free. Which gives those bonsai a valid certificate.
They still would need to be bare-rooted for the US. And there may be restrictions on some species. And states vary. And bare-rooting is best done at a set point in the year. But in general, that is how it works.
Of course, you have to pay for the inspections that need to be done either in Japan or in the US, to make sure the certification is valid and the plants match the certificate. So there is a price involved.
But if the Japanese seller knows how to export to the US. And you contact USDA beforehand, it isn't a difficult as the old method.
I have been trying to understand when this changed. Or if some US bonsai importers just want to buy and import trees that don't have valid paperwork from nurseries in Japan that don't know how to export to Japan.
But I wasn't able to figure this out from the US members here.
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Pitoon
Imperial Masterpiece
It's not hard at all to do legally. The question is it worth all the time and money to import one tree, maybe a couple of trees when you can just buy them from a nursery that has legally imported trees in and has already taken the risk.
Keep in mind everything coming in is bareroot and may have to be held in quarantine depending on the species.
Nybonsai12
Masterpiece
Aside from any regulations, shipping a live tree is always a gamble. If you’re like me, after a tree is purchased and leaves the sellers hands for a shipping carrier to take over, I get antsy and want it as soon as possible. It can become damaged, lost, delayed etc.
And we are mostly talking about importing higher end trees. Last thing I’d want is to spend some dough, have all my paperwork in place and an expensive tree become smashed up in transit. The importing process isn’t really for the average Joe.
And we are mostly talking about importing higher end trees. Last thing I’d want is to spend some dough, have all my paperwork in place and an expensive tree become smashed up in transit. The importing process isn’t really for the average Joe.
rockm
Spuds Moyogi
"You need to get a permit from USDA. which is free but requires some paperwork. Then you need to buy a tree from a nursery in Japan set up to export to the US. This includes the tree having a valid phytosanitary certificate for the US.
Then you need them to air mail it to your USDA point of entry. Once there, you can just pick them up.
For details, you need to contact USDA."
Indeed contact the USDA to actually get a better understanding on WTF is going on. The "need to buy a tree from a nursery set up to export to the U.S." skips past what's actually happening. The plants sold at those "nurseries set up to export to the U.S." have already undergone the two year quarantine and possibly barerooting before they are put up for sale, so the buyer doesn't actually realize the time--although the recovery from barerooting can linger on. Some species and smaller trees don't have as strict requirements as others. This varies from export country to export country. Bottom line, If you try to import a tree on your own without buying from a nursery set up to export it, you have to make quarantine arrangements yourself.
www.aphis.usda.gov
Then you need them to air mail it to your USDA point of entry. Once there, you can just pick them up.
For details, you need to contact USDA."
Indeed contact the USDA to actually get a better understanding on WTF is going on. The "need to buy a tree from a nursery set up to export to the U.S." skips past what's actually happening. The plants sold at those "nurseries set up to export to the U.S." have already undergone the two year quarantine and possibly barerooting before they are put up for sale, so the buyer doesn't actually realize the time--although the recovery from barerooting can linger on. Some species and smaller trees don't have as strict requirements as others. This varies from export country to export country. Bottom line, If you try to import a tree on your own without buying from a nursery set up to export it, you have to make quarantine arrangements yourself.
USDA APHIS | Bringing Bonsai to Washington, DC
www.aphis.usda.gov
chansen
Shohin
Uh, yes, the trees are being illegally imported. There is a buyer in Japan that is then moving them to another southeast Asian country (I know, but not calling it out - not the country's fault), and they are then moved to the US. There are a few family members involved on FB that often bid on each others' trees. How do I know - I asked someone that I'm connected to in Japan and he confirmed. Legally bought in Japan, illegally brought to the US. I believe the buyer in Japan is willing to facilitate for anyone, not just the sellers on FB. For a $750 fee, you can bring over three tress of your choice as well (not including the price of the trees).
Here's a story from over 20 years ago where Bonsai Northwest was involved. I don't think they were the source of the particular beetle, but it shows the impact imported pests can bring. USDA estimates $460 million is spent annually to try and control Japanese beetles.
Here's a story from over 20 years ago where Bonsai Northwest was involved. I don't think they were the source of the particular beetle, but it shows the impact imported pests can bring. USDA estimates $460 million is spent annually to try and control Japanese beetles.
Glaucus
Chumono
Wait lol wut?
20 years ago? You know because you 'asked someone'?
Assuming this is true, if you can't source these claims, don't make them.
I don't even know what Facebook seller this is about. But I am kinda sick of people just making shit up here over and over.
To illegally import, you probably have to do it through a ship container. Certainly not impossible. But when claims are made, we need some evidence.
An intermediate country doesn't fully make sense. So are they imported with fake phytosanitary certificates from a third country?
This is getting absurd. I know this is Bonsainut and many people here are just that; nutters. And I know we had a whole bunch of ANTIFA people steal and burn bonsai,
There isn't even a fucking link to this Facebook group in this very thread.
20 years ago? You know because you 'asked someone'?
Assuming this is true, if you can't source these claims, don't make them.
I don't even know what Facebook seller this is about. But I am kinda sick of people just making shit up here over and over.
To illegally import, you probably have to do it through a ship container. Certainly not impossible. But when claims are made, we need some evidence.
An intermediate country doesn't fully make sense. So are they imported with fake phytosanitary certificates from a third country?
This is getting absurd. I know this is Bonsainut and many people here are just that; nutters. And I know we had a whole bunch of ANTIFA people steal and burn bonsai,
There isn't even a fucking link to this Facebook group in this very thread.
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Give em hell Glaucus!
Srt8madness
Omono
Lmao you can say "Vietnam", it isn't a secret. China has been moving tariffed products through Vietnam for years (steel, in my personal experience), I don't think Bonsai would be any different.
Your "confirmation" is incredibly dubious. That would be like a Japanese person asking my opinion on cartel money laundering, I'd have no idea unless I was involved in them.
What would possibly be the benefit of shipping to another country before shipping to the U.S.?? The entry requirements are the same, and it isn't like customs inspects Japanese freight closer than VN. Doesn't pass the smell test.
As far as families bidding on each others trees, I suppose it's possible, but again what would that have to do with illegal imports? An attempt to drive up the price? I guess that's plausible, but in that case, caveat emptor.
Srt8madness
Omono
With PayPals buyer protection, the only way they could really get away with that is by sending an empty box. Plenty of people have bought trees on there, so not sure what there is to be curious about.
Wood
Shohin
Does anyone actually use the buyer’s protection on PayPal? I’ve seen a bunch of sellers ask for friends and family payment or to put the fees on top of the sale price
I think you don't have a full understanding of how this works... There are no containers of trees or certificates needed....just somebody in country A ships a small box labeled as something it is not but really containing one or more small trees to an individual in Country B...if its done on a small scale the risks of being caught are pretty minimal, but the penalties can be stiff. Several big names in bonsai can attest to this... Nothing official on either end. I have personally seen this done on multiple occasions by multiple different people (I know for a fact there are folks on this site that have participated) I have no actual knowledge that it is happening now on the auction sites but the evidence and circumstances are beyond fishy... The USA is not Europe...imported trees are rare commodities and easily recognizable. You can walk through any show ( or collection) and easily recognize the trees that are imported...obviously you cannot know the legality involved by just looking but these trees are never available at your local bonsai nursery???? It is not a big leap to understand what is actually occurring...
The rules are also broken frequently on the other end as well... trees are imported through legal channels, supposedly they have been in quarantine for two years but in reality have never spent one second in quarantine.
It is the nature of the beast...saying you can't do or have something is like the ultimate challenge to figure out how to get around it... to some extent we all do it...It is only the rule followers that get offended over this stuff...
Glaucus
Chumono
Your claims directly contradict the claims of the other person I was responding to.. What is really the point of your post as well? Are you sure you understand 'how it works'?
If you have evidence of fraud, just provide it. Actually, you yourself make two different claims on how fraud happens as well. I am not saying there's no fraud happening. Just amazed at the completely fact-free rambling.
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Seriously? With all your blabbing, do you have any proof of this at all other than something you "think" may have happened? I'm on Facebook bonsai auctions all the time. I also sell on them. I don't see anything suspicious with their auctions. IMO, your claims and imaginary happenings are going to get you and this site in trouble. If you have any proof at all (real proof), lets hear, and see it.
Nybonsai12
Masterpiece
I wouldn't pay anybody with family and friends on those auctions. and I never ask anybody to do so either...
Nybonsai12
Masterpiece
This is without question one way it is done. Customs can't possibly catch everything coming in whether it be trees or other items such as counterfeit goods. Packages slip through daily.
rockm
Spuds Moyogi
the laws are fudged on a large scale as well and have been for years. "Zelkova" bonsai coming in from China/S.E. Asia are really mostly Chinese elm (a repeated proven vector for Longhorn beetle). The mislabeling is to get around stricter import restrictions on Chinese Elm --Ulmus Parvifolia. I have yet to see a "zelkova" labeled bonsai at a big box store that is actually a Zelkova...
Shipping trees from a source in a more import-restricted country to another less import restricted country, then shipping to the U.S. with the lesser restricted country's documentation is a well-worn path for a universe of products, plants, animals and even people.
Still would be interested to see a link from the OP (@Bonsaiforlife?) of WTF he's talking about. As I've said, there are certainly other legal explanations for what they're seeing and they might be more plausible than illegal shipments.
Please carrying on…. Can’t fix….
Glaucus
Chumono
Then shut your mouth next time.
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