Bonsai soil off to market

[Brian Van Fleet]

Of the ten trees you repotted were they all the same species? How many were conifers and how many deciduous trees? The one that had the fiberous roots, what was it?

Please be patient with me, I simply want to know. What is it about akadama that makes it so good? What is it in it's content that makes it superior to anything we have in America?

Have you tried akadama over a period of time? If not, why argue from a point of ignorance against it?

I don't care what it "is", I care that it works. How? It holds water, it allows air circulation, it breaks down slowly over time, adapting with the roots. Newly potted trees have smaller root systems, and "fresh" akadama has more air space. As roots grow, akadama breaks down somewhat, holding more water. I've never seen better roots on my trees than those in akadama. The pad looks like a cake coming out of the pot. Earthy, porous, and easy to comb through.

If you found what works for you, great.

 

[Vance Wood]

Have you tried akadama over a period of time? If not, why argue from a point of ignorance against it?

I don't care what it "is", I care that it works. How? It holds water, it allows air circulation, it breaks down slowly over time, adapting with the roots. Newly potted trees have smaller root systems, and "fresh" akadama has more air space. As roots grow, akadama breaks down somewhat, holding more water. I've never seen better roots on my trees than those in akadama. The pad looks like a cake coming out of the pot. Earthy, porous, and easy to comb through.

If you found what works for you, great.

No I have not tried akadama because I have never had the occasion to find any, the extra money to order it, or the extreme need and desperation with my trees, as a last resort, to make obtaining the stuff necessary. All of the things you mention as positive factors I already have. I was simply asking a question; what chemically, or otherwise, makes akadama unique in the world of bonsai. Yes it works for you and you should continue to use it. Why does it work? To me it is beginning to look like the discussions we used to have about Super Thrive.

No one so far has been able to tell me what there is about it that makes it work, I know you have told me what it does, my soil does all of that.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

And that's why I hate when I have a moment of insanity and wade into the great soil debate. Someday I will learn.

Here's hoping I can keep my fingers otherwise occupied when the annual and infinitely-inspiring fertilizer discussions return...usually a couple months after the great soil debates subside.

Returning to banging my head on the desk in Birmingham...please proceed.

 

[Vance Wood]

And that's why I hate when I have a moment of insanity and wade into the great soil debate. Someday I will learn.

Here's hoping I can keep my fingers otherwise occupied when the annual and infinitely-inspiring fertilizer discussions return...usually a couple months after the great soil debates subside.

Returning to banging my head on the desk in Birmingham...please proceed.

I agree but you can at least be thankful we are not discussing whether bonsai is and art or not.

 

[Dav4]

I agree but you can at least be thankful we are not discussing whether bonsai is and art or not.

...it is....

 

[Poink88]

I agree but you can at least be thankful we are not discussing whether bonsai is and art or not.

...it is....

to some.... LOL

 

[Beng]

No I have not tried akadama because I have never had the occasion to find any, the extra money to order it, or the extreme need and desperation with my trees, as a last resort, to make obtaining the stuff necessary. All of the things you mention as positive factors I already have. I was simply asking a question; what chemically, or otherwise, makes akadama unique in the world of bonsai. Yes it works for you and you should continue to use it. Why does it work? To me it is beginning to look like the discussions we used to have about Super Thrive.

No one so far has been able to tell me what there is about it that makes it work, I know you have told me what it does, my soil does all of that.

Superthrive is just vitamin B right, thats why it works? Its the same as any vitamin B solution it promotes faster root growth.

The best way for me to explain the diff between roots grown in my normal mix vs roots grown in a mix of mostly akadama is... Roots grown in akadama are very fine but create a dense but still porous pad like an azaleas roots. Whereas roots grown in my normal mix look like healthy normal roots. I think this is because roots can grow right through akadama unlike most modern soiless mediums which break up roots to go around the particles. You will never see roots grow through one side and out the other of pumice, lava, turface, or any other soiless substitute for akadama. You may see one root go into one side of an akadama pebble and 5 or 6 come out the other side.

 

[Vance Wood]

Superthrive is just vitamin B right, thats why it works? Its the same as any vitamin B solution it promotes faster root growth.

The best way for me to explain the diff between roots grown in my normal mix vs roots grown in a mix of mostly akadama is... Roots grown in akadama are very fine but create a dense but still porous pad like an azaleas roots. Whereas roots grown in my normal mix look like healthy normal roots. I think this is because roots can grow right through akadama unlike most modern soiless mediums which break up roots to go around the particles. You will never see roots grow through one side and out the other of pumice, lava, turface, or any other soiless substitute for akadama. You may see one root go into one side of an akadama pebble and 5 or 6 come out the other side.

There is a theory about that as well but we will save that for latter.

 

[daytona1911]

You guys are a trip. I'm not getting into the other arguments. Ill just say that I got a good deal on a 1/4 pallet of akadama, and I like what it does for the roots. Although if I grow my plants in akadama alone, with an 11 month growing season, I get a solid block of roots and lack of drainage in anything less than 12 inch pot. The same characteristics that make it amazing, also make the roots fill in to where a twice a year repot is in order. No time for that. I have found putting in 20-25% akadama make the roots very happy and still maintains a granular structure throughout the life of the repot. Although I notice pumice also makes for amazing roots as well. Lava by itself, not so much. The roots do grow good in it, but it seems to dry out too much on the surface and stay too wet at the bottom in bigger pots, maybe due to ???. Believe it or not, course perilite makes for amazing roots, but careful watering and lack of putting anything else in the mix due to the perilite washing away to the top leaving the heavier aggregate on the bottom leaves it as a mix much to be desired. Yes, many many experiments over the past 10 years or so. I sell what I use and what I can afford. If I couldn't have afforded the akadama, I wouldn't have gotten it. And I may not have it next year as it was a one time buy, and the difficulty reacquiring make it cost prohibitive. Ill probably add more pumice in place of it. I wish we could get Drystall or here. it just isn't available on the east coast and the manufacturers number is disconnected.

 

[Beng]

You guys are a trip. I'm not getting into the other arguments. Ill just say that I got a good deal on a 1/4 pallet of akadama, and I like what it does for the roots. Although if I grow my plants in akadama alone, with an 11 month growing season, I get a solid block of roots and lack of drainage in anything less than 12 inch pot.

The amount of feeder roots on the one I had a higher majority of good roots on was approaching the solid block realm. Like you said at least pumice for drainage. I'd say in the interest of saving my back from repotting every year, a mix of 2 parts akadama, one part pumice, and one lava or some other stone/grit would be just about perfect for my deciduous trees. But in the end plants will grow in anything as long as they get enough water and nutrients.

 

[Erndogy]

So, now I have a question.
If akadama is used, is there any need to use anything organic? I know organics can be used as an insurance against drying out the soil too rapidly in hot and dry weather, and some people argue that organics is a must for deciduous trees. I want to know if akadama can take the place of organics in bonsai soil?

And can it be used in conjunction with organic soil? Would there be any benefit to using akadama if you are using it with organics?

I am asking because I have been using 60% lava, 40% cactus mix. I have also used 30% lava, 30% pumice and 40% cactus mix.

Would there be any benefit to using some akadama and pumice alone or with certain % of organic soil/cactus, other non-organic like DG in the mix?

Since akadama seems to be so beneficial to roots, and I have access to it, I would like to try it but would hate to loose trees due to lack of moisture. Does akadama hold as much moisture as organic soil?


Are these too many questions to ask in one reply?

Ernie

 

[Vance Wood]

So, now I have a question.
If akadama is used, is there any need to use anything organic? I know organics can be used as an insurance against drying out the soil too rapidly in hot and dry weather, and some people argue that organics is a must for deciduous trees. I want to know if akadama can take the place of organics in bonsai soil?

And can it be used in conjunction with organic soil? Would there be any benefit to using akadama if you are using it with organics?

I am asking because I have been using 60% lava, 40% cactus mix. I have also used 30% lava, 30% pumice and 40% cactus mix.

Would there be any benefit to using some akadama and pumice alone or with certain % of organic soil/cactus, other non-organic like DG in the mix?

Since akadama seems to be so beneficial to roots, and I have access to it, I would like to try it but would hate to loose trees due to lack of moisture. Does akadama hold as much moisture as organic soil?


Are these too many questions to ask in one reply?

Ernie

To tweak, provoke or otherwise compel somebody that is into this stuff to reply with the information you are looking for let me post this erroneous observation; to those who use akadama the underlaying belief seems to be that the stuff can raise the dead.

Now let's see if the pitch fork and hang man's noose crowd storms the castle LOL------I'm such a bastard!

 

[MrFancyPlants]

So, now I have a question.
If akadama is used, is there any need to use anything organic? I know organics can be used as an insurance against drying out the soil too rapidly in hot and dry weather, and some people argue that organics is a must for deciduous trees. I want to know if akadama can take the place of organics in bonsai soil?

And can it be used in conjunction with organic soil? Would there be any benefit to using akadama if you are using it with organics?

I am asking because I have been using 60% lava, 40% cactus mix. I have also used 30% lava, 30% pumice and 40% cactus mix.

Would there be any benefit to using some akadama and pumice alone or with certain % of organic soil/cactus, other non-organic like DG in the mix?

Since akadama seems to be so beneficial to roots, and I have access to it, I would like to try it but would hate to loose trees due to lack of moisture. Does akadama hold as much moisture as organic soil?


Are these too many questions to ask in one reply?

Ernie

I would say that it does hold water, but maybe not quite as much as peat based soil. The benefit is that it holds water and lets air through at the same time (So does turface and dry stall). I'm not sure what a cactus mix is, but am guessing it is sand and peat. You could use it in conjunction with akadama, but I think most would recommend you move away from the peat based soil. Sifted pine bark I think would be the most often recommended organic component.

That being said everyone needs to figure out their own soil mix based on their own watering methods, and the only way to do that is by experimenting. Actually that is not true, you could find something that works and stick with it, but what is the fun in that.

I don't use akadama because it is expensive and hard to get for me. Actually, that is not true either, I've had one small bag for years and I put just a few grains of it into most of my pots for good luck.

 

[Vance Wood]

I would say that it does hold water, but maybe not quite as much as peat based soil. The benefit is that it holds water and lets air through at the same time (So does turface and dry stall). I'm not sure what a cactus mix is, but am guessing it is sand and peat. You could use it in conjunction with akadama, but I think most would recommend you move away from the peat based soil. Sifted pine bark I think would be the most often recommended organic component.

That being said everyone needs to figure out their own soil mix based on their own watering methods, and the only way to do that is by experimenting. Actually that is not true, you could find something that works and stick with it, but what is the fun in that.

I don't use akadama because it is expensive and hard to get for me. Actually, that is not true either, I've had one small bag for years and I put just a few grains of it into most of my pots for good luck.

I agree with your assessment of soils. The cactus mix, if it is like what we used to sell when I worked for Frank's Nursery, is way to fine in general for a decent bonsai soil and is probably too alkaline. As to the akadama, I am kind of on the same page the more I hear about it the more I am beginning to think it is more a faith based product. Every one will tell you how wonderful it is but no one can explain why-----I'm still waiting on that one as well.

 

[Beng]

I agree with your assessment of soils. The cactus mix, if it is like what we used to sell when I worked for Frank's Nursery, is way to fine in general for a decent bonsai soil and is probably too alkaline. As to the akadama, I am kind of on the same page the more I hear about it the more I am beginning to think it is more a faith based product. Every one will tell you how wonderful it is but no one can explain why-----I'm still waiting on that one as well.

I think a few of us explained several reasons why it's a great soil ingredient. Roots have the ability to grow through akadama and ramify as they pass through it. Other then that it is the same as turface, but I'll say it again roots won't pass through turface. I've used many soil ingredients including turface, in fact my mix for trees in development this year has a lot of turface in it and no akadama. I think it's ignorant to say its folklore if you've never used it. No one ever said you can't grow a great tree in a mix with no akadama, of course you can.

 

[Poink88]

A lot of things cannot be explained (yet) but they are there, works, happens, etc. Just journey back in time when they cannot explain; gravity, DNA, fire, radiation, cancer, etc. It didn't mean those things didn't exist. Maybe some day someone brighter than us will find a way to make sense of it all.

In bonsai some of the things that comes up are; cut paste, rooting hormones, akadama, super thrive & other tonics, vitamins, etc.

For me, I just use what works (if I can afford it )

 

[Vance Wood]

I think a few of us explained several reasons why it's a great soil ingredient. Roots have the ability to grow through akadama and ramify as they pass through it. Other then that it is the same as turface, but I'll say it again roots won't pass through turface. I've used many soil ingredients including turface, in fact my mix for trees in development this year has a lot of turface in it and no akadama. I think it's ignorant to say its folklore if you've never used it. No one ever said you can't grow a great tree in a mix with no akadama, of course you can.

You know I am getting just a bit tired of you akadamadorks calling me ignorant. No one has proved to me or informed me of the scientific make up of this stuff that makes it so superior. You tell me how well your roots grow----mine grow fine in my crud. No one ever said you can't grow a great tree in a mix with no akadama, of course you can. It has been implied that you are not doing it correctly if you don't use akadama, not recently but it has been implied.

 

[MrFancyPlants]

Now Vance, let's not make or take it personally.

There are a lot of arguments for akadama (in no particular order): history, CEC, water retention yet breathability, slow breakdown over time (so that it becomes more water retentive as the plant grows into the pot and needs more water), mineral content?.

There are also a couple of good arguments against it: Price, availability, did I get the right type of akadama and what do I mix it with, plenty of viable alternatives.

I think one reason that soils are so contentious is that it is very difficult to do a scientific comparison for most of us hobbyists. Even in a well thought out experiment , there are just way too many variables (the glaring one is watering in this example).

I actually enjoy studying, thinking and even debating(to a lesser extent) the details of soil, but at a certain point it becomes a political or religious debate in that no matter how much you talk about it you are not going to be able to change someone's core believes.
I would love to hear an updated opinion as to the characteristics of akadama's CEC as compared to turface and dry stall.

 

[buddhamonk]

Here is what I've been using as a reference for years. Akadam has a higher CEC than most and it's pH I think is also favorable for growing non acid loving plants.

I recently switched from Akadama to Diatomite because it has a CEC close to Akadama, same water absorption. I've tried all kinds of mixes but the appearance of roots with akadama is far superior than anything else I've tried so far. Too bad I can't get it anymore...

 

[Vance Wood]

Now Vance, let's not make or take it personally.

There are a lot of arguments for akadama (in no particular order): history, CEC, water retention yet breathability, slow breakdown over time (so that it becomes more water retentive as the plant grows into the pot and needs more water), mineral content?.

There are also a couple of good arguments against it: Price, availability, did I get the right type of akadama and what do I mix it with, plenty of viable alternatives.

I think one reason that soils are so contentious is that it is very difficult to do a scientific comparison for most of us hobbyists. Even in a well thought out experiment , there are just way too many variables (the glaring one is watering in this example).

I actually enjoy studying, thinking and even debating(to a lesser extent) the details of soil, but at a certain point it becomes a political or religious debate in that no matter how much you talk about it you are not going to be able to change someone's core believes.
I would love to hear an updated opinion as to the characteristics of akadama's CEC as compared to turface and dry stall.

In the immortal words of Rooster Cogburn: "No one likes being called low down and foul smelling".

Sometimes it is amusing to see how passionate some people are about dirt. I personally don't donate fecal matter over the issue. Technically you grow bonsai in dog feces if you water correctly, and let the stuff dry out before use. But what would you want to? It just might be an invitation to every canid that is capable of functioning on three legs to demonstrate their ability all over your bonsai.