Bonsai soil off to market

[daytona1911]

Well, I personally believe you can grow trees in organics, exp in milder areas in the country. There is some science supporting keeping some organics to create a "living" soil. I, however believe organics fertilizers fulfill that requisite . I also believe organics in the mix, whether pine bark, leaf mold, fir bark etc, here in Florida can be an issue with our daily rains during the summer as stated before. I grew in organics for years. As long as I repotted before trouble all my trees did fine. I just find now that I don't have to repot near as often, get tighter internodes due to tighter root compaction ability with soil not breaking down, and as long as the drainage is good, I removed one variable with watering and have more consistent dryness between waterings on same repotted trees . Also, if someone buys my "inorganic" mix and would like to add organics, be my guest. pine bark is easy and cheap. Kind of another reason I didn't put it in. Different locals use different amounts of organic. from 5 to 30 % or more. Better to let them add it and pay for the premium aggregates then fill up my shelves with soil I cant use in a pinch here locally.
Food for thought

 

[Beng]

You know I am getting just a bit tired of you akadamadorks calling me ignorant. No one has proved to me or informed me of the scientific make up of this stuff that makes it so superior. You tell me how well your roots grow----mine grow fine in my crud. No one ever said you can't grow a great tree in a mix with no akadama, of course you can. It has been implied that you are not doing it correctly if you don't use akadama, not recently but it has been implied.

What is your "crud" if it can save me money it might be worth using on trees in development.

 

[Vance Wood]

What is your "crud" if it can save me money it might be worth using on trees in development.

A bonsai mix contains basically three components. I use a small bucket to measure with so we will start with that being designated as a "one part" measure. I use in equal parts for a basic mix for all of my conifers. One part composted pine bark mulch often sold as composted garden mulch with the dust sifted out of it. One part #2 or #3 swimming pool filter sand or sand blasting sand, it's the same thing depending on where you get it and one part small red lava gravel or Turface with the fines sifted out or a combination of the two. I will add 1/2 part activated charcoal to keep the soil sweet. For deciduous trees I add an extra part composted pine bark mulch as above.

This mix holds up well for years without breaking down. The only time the organic pine bark mulch becomes a problem is when the Turface (or akadama if you substitute for Turface etc. breaks down) causing the soil to become more compacted. It drains like a sieve, and its field capacity remains pretty much stable over at least three years, I have kept some conifers in it for over five years and it still drains well. You can tell when your soil is starting to break down when it starts to smell like someone broke wind.

That's Vance's world infamous crud mix.

 

[Beng]

The only sand I've seen is river sand which is like a small sharp rock. Is swimming pool sand equivalent in size or is it more like beach sand or kids playground sand? If it's the latter doesn't this just drain out the mesh at the bottom of the pot over time?

 

[Vance Wood]

The only sand I've seen is river sand which is like a small sharp rock. Is swimming pool sand equivalent in size or is it more like beach sand or kids playground sand? If it's the latter doesn't this just drain out the mesh at the bottom of the pot over time?

Swimming pool filter sand is usually one of two stone type. Quartz is usually the best it is kind of a golden brown color and I prefer #3 grade but I will settle for #2 grade. The very same sand in the very same grades is also sold at some home improvement or construction stores as sand blasting sand. The other is often sold as Mistic White, I'm not sure what its stone element is but it's too fine as is river sand, beach sand (don't use it's full of salt) and play sand it's too fine. The sand you want is coarse sand. There was a time when you could buy agricultural sand but I have not seen that stuff since I moved from California over forty years ago.

 

[JudyB]

sted pine bark mulch as above.

The only time the organic pine bark mulch becomes a problem is when the Turface (or akadama if you substitute for Turface etc. breaks down) causing the soil to become more compacted.

I have never ever seen Turface break down. Anyone???

 

[Martin Sweeney]

Judy,

I have not seen it break down. I have also never, ever, ever seen it get back together.

Regards,
Martin

 

[Vance Wood]

I have never ever seen Turface break down. Anyone???

It depends on what grade of Turface you have. As you know it is calcined clay meaning it has been fired in a kiln at high temperature. If you have some that was not fired at the right temp. it may break down. I have seen this. Sometimes it depends on climate. Strong differences between heating during the summer and freezing in the winter can contribute to the break down.

 

[rockm]

Over the years, I've seen SOME turface turn to mush. It happens occasionally, and it can be unpredictable given the localized sources of the stuff. A particularly bad series of winters with yo-yo freeeze/thaw cycles can contribute...

FWIW, Mystic White swimming pool filter sand is crushed white quartz -- in my area anyway. That's why it's called Mystic White, because its white, like quartz, not silica sand. It has grains roughly the size as third of a grain of rice, which is pretty perfect for use in bonsai soil. I've also only seen it in one grade at the swimming pool places around here.

 

[bougie nights]

How come akadama works so well?

Let us all look to the words of Joe Dirt's father for some guidance:

Hey! How exactly is a rainbow made? How exactly does a sun set? How exactly does a posi-trac rear-end on a Plymouth work? It just does.

IT JUST DOES.

 

[Vance Wood]

How come akadama works so well?

Let us all look to the words of Joe Dirt's father for some guidance:

Hey! How exactly is a rainbow made? How exactly does a sun set? How exactly does a posi-trac rear-end on a Plymouth work? It just does.

IT JUST DOES.

How come it works so well? Well----that's a question we should really want to know the answer to. Some of you may remember that the government is clamping down on the importation of the stuff (akadama) and what are you going to do when you can't get it without sacrificing your first born or at all? There is another issue that has not arisen as yet but I suspect it will in the foreseeable future; what will you do when Japan decides it will no longer export akadama because it is viewed as a valuable and diminishing natural resource? If history has taught us anything it is this: It is a dangerous thing to become dependent upon a resource you cannot provide for your self. Wars have been started over this------WWII for one.

 

[daytona1911]

I have never ever seen Turface break down. Anyone???

The lower fired Turface will absolutely break down. IE Kitty litter, oil dry, stall dry , or most lower fired brands. The ones every person uses successively for bonsai that I have seen here in Florida uses that doesn't break down to mush is the higher fired calcinated clays. (MVP, RED, Medallion, etc) Around 1200 degrees I believe and is basically like a broken pot graded to size. I have seen calcinated clay go to crap, and I've seen a bougainvillea in a huge bonsai pot in 100% calcinated Clay for 10 years with close to no dust or silt at the bottom. With happy solid feeders throughout the 3 foot pot.
Jason

 

[Martin Sweeney]

So, are we saying that lower fired calcined clay will break down, or are we saying that some Turface will break down? Those seem to be different things to me.

I have had automotive supply store oil absorbing material break down within weeks. I have never had Turface break down.

Regards,
Martin

 

[Poink88]

So, are we saying that lower fired calcined clay will break down, or are we saying that some Turface will break down? Those seem to be different things to me.

I have had automotive supply store oil absorbing material break down within weeks. I have never had Turface break down.

Regards,
Martin

From what I've read in this thread...seems like some are saying that some Turface are not as high fired (manufacturing variances) and may breakdown esp if you have severe freeze thaw cycles.

Personally, I've never seen it breakdown either.

 

[berobinson82]

Perhaps it's your lack of hard freezes and not having had the turface in use very long.

 

[Vance Wood]

From what I've read in this thread...seems like some are saying that some Turface are not as high fired (manufacturing variances) and may breakdown esp if you have severe freeze thaw cycles.

Personally, I've never seen it breakdown either.

That's true, sometimes it is not fired at as high a temp. as it is at others. We had a discussion about this a number of years ago on a now defunct web site and it seem that the stuff made late in the year is less favorable than in the spring. I have never had any real problems with it that have caused a problem but I have seen it turn to less than optimal after a couple of years.

 

[coh]

I tested turface (version "allsport" from John Deere Landscaping) and some of its supposed replacements (oil dry/calcined DE, cat litter, etc) a year or two ago. Thoroughly soaked each, drained, then put in the freezer. Repeated this process a bunch of times. Cat litter (the "Special Kitty" brand that people were advocating on another forum) turned to mush, the calcined DE broke down a moderate amount, and the turface was the least affected by the process...but it did show a bit of degradation. I haven't tested different bags to see if they behave differently. I suspect each bag probably has some "weak" particles that will break down quicker, but overall I've found it to be pretty sturdy.

If I start noticing problems, I'll probably test a sample from each bag before use.

Chris

 

[JudyB]

I didn't know there were different versions of turface. I only use the MVP. Freeze thaw is the norm all winter here, so if it were going to break down, it would've by now. Been using the original batch re-screened for many years now...

 

[Beng]

Judy what's your mix? For trees in training pots I'm thinking of using MVP, lava, and possibly pumice. MVP is just so darn tiny though.... Does this cause any problems when the pumice and the lava are a particle size almost 2-4 times larger?

 

[Vance Wood]

I didn't know there were different versions of turface. I only use the MVP. Freeze thaw is the norm all winter here, so if it were going to break down, it would've by now. Been using the original batch re-screened for many years now...

MVP is usually what I get too. I usually mix it with the red lava stone,.