Can this work in place of Turface?

[Adair M]

I don't know how much you need.

But BonsaiJack has seived pumice available. Www.bonsaijack.com.

I would think there ought to be some places near Vancouver that would have it.

 

[Smoke]

Fyi and interestingly, I've noticed that pumice has some pretty wide variations in terms of weight and porosity. I guess it depends on which volcanic event created it and what not.

Thats why I like the grow stones. The same in every bag.

 

[twarawa]

Hi Pierre,

I've used that product for the last 2 summers and through one winter. So far it seems to hold up well. I think it's the same as the NAPA floor dry. I sifted and rinsed the fines out but still use the smaller stuff for a lot of my trees. It doesn't hold too much water to cause root rot as far as my experience has shown.

I too gave up on Turface as I couldn't find anyone that would even order it for me. The tried to sell me Profile which is for fairways and is much smaller. I tried a bit and it seemed to hold as much water as potting soil.

If you need Turface find a Brett Young as they are a dealer. I think they only get it in by the pallet in late spring though.

Oh, and suitable sized pumice or lava is pretty much nonexistant for our area.

Sometimes it's a real chore to find any bonsai items up here.

FYI I did the freeze thaw test about 5 times and used the microwave as well and it won't break up with your fingers.

 

[Bunjeh]

This is going to start another one of those soil debates. I am holding firm with pumice, lava and decomposed pine bark.

 

[M. Frary]

Looks just like what I use just a different bag.
I use it pure in almost everything. I do put some turkey grit in for conifers to make it a littler drier mix. About maybe 10%. Not sure it is necessary.
I never sift it. Or rinse it. Straight from bag to bucket. I've never had it turn to mush. Still using recycled floor dry that is 3 years old.
I only water once per day. Even the small pots. Fertilize once or twice per week with miracle grow at least double strength. I have it in everything. I'm even growing tomatoes in it in a collander.
The main reason I use it is because it is cheap and readily available. Like turface. Both are good if used right. No organic fertilizers. They make it weird and it won't absorb water.

 

[markyscott]

I've kind of given up responding to these threads. But you seem sincere and it's difficult to sort through all the conflicting advice that you'll be given and read about on the internet.

You asked if it 'could work'. To me that means 'will my trees die if I put them in this'. The answer to this question is easy and you've already got it - no your trees won't die, as long as it doesn't break down too much under your growing conditions, and you water correctly for the properties of the media.

The other, more nuanced question is (and the one that causes the most battles due to confusion with the above question) - 'is it optimal'. Or 'how close to optimal is it'. Those questions are much more difficult for anyone to answer. I can't tell you - I've not seen any data on your soil, know nothing about the conditions under which you're using it, and know nothing about how it will respond under bonsai culture. Even if I did know the properties, we'll still need to see a controlled study objectively comparing growth in it to other media. Bottom line is that no one else can tell you either.

Scott

 

[markyscott]

But I will tell you the two properties which are commonly considered to be the most important physical properties of a potting mix (with decades of research to back it up):

The first is air-filled porosity (the percentage of a given volume of a potting mix that is occupied by air after irrigation and drainage). For nursery plants, good potting mixes have air-filled porosity above 10-15%. I usually shoot for about 20% or so. Many soils have this property in a nursery pot, but nursery pots are pretty deep - in a shallow bonsai pot the AFP for the same soil that works well in a deep pot is quite a bit lower due to capillary forces which increase the saturation. This is why every tree in the garden center is growing in crushed peat, but that same tree will struggle mightily if you put it in the same soil in a bonsai pot.

The second is water-holding capacity (the percentage of a given volume of water that is occupied by water after irrigation and drainage). In nurseries, they are looking for something in excess of 40% to cut down on labor and watering costs. If it's lower, the plant will grow fine, but you have to water more often. So in a nursery, they want the WHC as high as possible while maintaining an AFP > 10%.

So if you want to know how good your soil is, replicate the conditions you intend to use it (sifted/not sifted, depth of the pot you're using, if you have a drainage layer, etc) and measure the properties above. It's dead easy to do. I've posted the instructions before. Then you can tell us if it might be optimal.

Scott

 

[M. Frary]

Not sure how well akadama will work for you where you are at with all of the freeze thaw cycles you experience. I also experience the same. Heard it breaks down faster under those conditions. But then again it's supposed to break down but not so fast I think.
I plan on getting some and trying it. Next weekend I'm going to a show where vendors will have every soil component under the sun. I'm getting some of everything and trying it.
In the end Pierre you will have to come to the substrate that works best for you in your area.
I've had great results with the DE. If there is something better out there that works for me I will be amazed.

 

[PierreR]

Thanks Scott. I appreciate your time helping out a newb to the finer points of this hobby. When I started, there was no internet, and my early failures were frustrating. Could i ask for the link to the thread you reference for instructions lease? I have no issues with testing. 'is it optimal'. Or 'how close to optimal is it' This is my target question.

twarawa, I found Brett Young just this morning. The rep told me they have their plant/wharehouse in Leduc? He is gonna call me tuesday morning (holiday weekend) and has no issues getting me a 50 pound sack of whatever I need. He also mentioned he has a porus ceramic (baked clay) that the UofS uses for testing purposes in the horticulture dept. He assures me that the university tested it, and its properties are superior to Turface as a growing medium, and WILL NOT turn to mush. It aparently has great water/nutrient holding/releasing properties. Gonna talk with him more and get some details. As for Pumice? I saw one sack this summer, be damned If I can remember where...

Mike, I read several posts of you experience with this type of mix, was out last night checking shops. Went to a tack shop, looked at Stall Dry, that stuff I can crush between my fingers. Looked at chicken grit, grain size not much bigger than coares sand. Checked a couple other flooy dry type products, some had fine grains, one of the larger grits sized products, seemed to crush too easily. Gonna go look at the one I referenced in my first post later. My thoughts are, and likely similar to those with more experience (I hope) that my seasonal deep freeze, will shatter any porus medium in a couple seasons. Inevitable I think. But I'd like to keep is to a minimum somehow. If the university uses this new stuff outside, with good results, I might have found my potential solution.

Bunjeh, I dont want a debate. Mearly looking at otions that I can source locally. I'd be happy enough using pumice, lava and decomposed pine bark, sourcing it here seems to be my delima.

I appreciat you guys trying to help. Thank you.

 

[jk_lewis]

Confused yet? If you say no, I say "liar liar pants on fire."

Here's the honest truth (temporary version):

All you need as a soil mixture to start out in bonsai is one that drains well and quickly.

Once you have that. Keep a close watch on your trees (don't panic if your trees show some temporary transplant shock) for a year, and adjust you components to suit the tree and your growing conditions. Join a club and talk to members as to what they use under similar conditions.

Oh, and while you are studying your trees' reaction to their soil, as a question here about what fertilizer to use. That's always fun, too, but the answer is JUST AS SIMPLE as this one.

 

[markyscott]

Thanks Scott. I appreciate your time helping out a newb to the finer points of this hobby. When I started, there was no internet, and my early failures were frustrating. Could i ask for the link to the thread you reference for instructions lease? I have no issues with testing. 'is it optimal'. Or 'how close to optimal is it' This is my target question.

twarawa, I found Brett Young just this morning. The rep told me they have their plant/wharehouse in Leduc? He is gonna call me tuesday morning (holiday weekend) and has no issues getting me a 50 pound sack of whatever I need. He also mentioned he has a porus ceramic (baked clay) that the UofS uses for testing purposes in the horticulture dept. He assures me that the university tested it, and its properties are superior to Turface as a growing medium, and WILL NOT turn to mush. It aparently has great water/nutrient holding/releasing properties. Gonna talk with him more and get some details. As for Pumice? I saw one sack this summer, be damned If I can remember where...

Mike, I read several posts of you experience with this type of mix, was out last night checking shops. Went to a tack shop, looked at Stall Dry, that stuff I can crush between my fingers. Looked at chicken grit, grain size not much bigger than coares sand. Checked a couple other flooy dry type products, some had fine grains, one of the larger grits sized products, seemed to crush too easily. Gonna go look at the one I referenced in my first post later. My thoughts are, and likely similar to those with more experience (I hope) that my seasonal deep freeze, will shatter any porus medium in a couple seasons. Inevitable I think. But I'd like to keep is to a minimum somehow. If the university uses this new stuff outside, with good results, I might have found my potential solution.

Bunjeh, I dont want a debate. Mearly looking at otions that I can source locally. I'd be happy enough using pumice, lava and decomposed pine bark, sourcing it here seems to be my delima.

I appreciat you guys trying to help. Thank you.

http://bonsaistudygroup.com/general-discussion/substrate-and-water-retention/msg17832/#msg17832

But that's another discussion board. It's super easy - here's how you do it:

1. You'll need at graduated cylinder or plastic measuring cup. Drill a hole at the very bottom.
2. Fill the cylinder up with soil. They height is very important - fill it up to the depth of your bonsai pot. If you plan on using a drainage layer, make sure you subtract the height of your drainage layer. from the soil level in the cylinder. Read off the volume of soil in the beaker.
3. Start with a fixed amount of water. Holding your finger over the hole on the bottom, pour in water until the water level just reaches the top of the soil and see how much water you have left. The difference between the water volume you started with and that you finished with is the total porosity of the soil.
4. Place a second measuring cup beneath the cylinder and remove your finger. Measure the amount of water that drains out. The difference between the volume of water you poured in and the amount that comes out measures the volume of water the soil can hold.
5. The volume of water stuck in the soil divided by the total porosity you measured in step 3 is the saturated pore volume. One minus the saturated pore volume is the air-filled porosity. You want this number to be 20% or so. There's nuance in plant species on what they like - some trees (pines, maples) seem to like it even higher (25-30%). But you want to avoid numbers less than 15%. At 10% conditions are waterlogged and plant growth suffers. Less than 5% they'll start dying.

If you're number is too low, here are some things you can do:

1. Sieve out the fine-grained fraction. The coarser and more uniform the grain size, the higher the AFP. I use 1/4"-3/8" grain size. I'm guessing you'll want something a bit more coarse grained depending on the depth of the pot you plan on using.
2. Use a deeper pot. The deeper the pot the easier it will be to get the right AFP.
3. Use a thinner drainage layer.
4. Use a material with more angular fragments.

You can do the exact same experiment with by measuring weight too - you might be able to make your measurements more accurately if you have a good scale. Just measure do all the same steps, except measure the weight of the soil after each step. You can calculate the volumes using the water density (1g/cc).

Scott

 

[PierreR]

Thank you sir!

 

[markyscott]

I know this seems complicated, but when you do it a couple of times you'll see how easy it is. Most here will tell you to find a soil with "good drainage". Or one that "drains well". They're absolutely right, but 'drainage' is not a measurable quantity. What is measurable is air-filled porosity or water holding capacity. Let us know what you find out.

Scott

 

[wireme]

Thanks Scott. I appreciate your time helping out a newb to the finer points of this hobby. When I started, there was no internet, and my early failures were frustrating. Could i ask for the link to the thread you reference for instructions lease? I have no issues with testing. 'is it optimal'. Or 'how close to optimal is it' This is my target question.

twarawa, I found Brett Young just this morning. The rep told me they have their plant/wharehouse in Leduc? He is gonna call me tuesday morning (holiday weekend) and has no issues getting me a 50 pound sack of whatever I need. He also mentioned he has a porus ceramic (baked clay) that the UofS uses for testing purposes in the horticulture dept. He assures me that the university tested it, and its properties are superior to Turface as a growing medium, and WILL NOT turn to mush. It aparently has great water/nutrient holding/releasing properties. Gonna talk with him more and get some details. As for Pumice? I saw one sack this summer, be damned If I can remember where...

Mike, I read several posts of you experience with this type of mix, was out last night checking shops. Went to a tack shop, looked at Stall Dry, that stuff I can crush between my fingers. Looked at chicken grit, grain size not much bigger than coares sand. Checked a couple other flooy dry type products, some had fine grains, one of the larger grits sized products, seemed to crush too easily. Gonna go look at the one I referenced in my first post later. My thoughts are, and likely similar to those with more experience (I hope) that my seasonal deep freeze, will shatter any porus medium in a couple seasons. Inevitable I think. But I'd like to keep is to a minimum somehow. If the university uses this new stuff outside, with good results, I might have found my potential solution.

Bunjeh, I dont want a debate. Mearly looking at otions that I can source locally. I'd be happy enough using pumice, lava and decomposed pine bark, sourcing it here seems to be my delima.

I appreciat you guys trying to help. Thank you.

The granite grit in the feed shops her comes in different sizes for different birds, from canaries to turkeys, they are labeled by number.

Pumice, it seems odd that it's so hard to find, I have never seen it available anywhere either, so I drove a trailer to one of the mines on the coast and brought home a load direct from the source. I still didn't get exactly what I wanted, mostly its a very large particle size but if you want I could sift some out for you and send a bag off by greyhound, we can talk about a fair price, shouldn't be a problem, not sure about the shipping cost though.

 

[PierreR]

If you would look into it, I'd appreciate it. Go from there.

 

[markyscott]

Does Wee Tree ship to Canada?

http://www.weetree.com/bonsai-soil/pumice-50-bag-pallet/

Scott

 

[twarawa]

I talked to the rep in Calmar (i thinks that's the Leduc branch) and made the trip two summers ago for Turface. Just make sure to call ahead and make sure they check stock and reserve some for you. I called ahead and when I got there they were out which is why they sold me some Profile. They said it would be great for my purposes but once I got it home I saw it was about the size of sand particles. It doesn't turn to mush though... They did tell me it wouldn't be a problem to ship it to me though if you don't want to make the drive.

I used to fret about the soil that everyone was using and how we couldn't get it in Canada. Now I just use what I can find locally and the trees seem happy. Grit of many sizes from UFA, bark from any garden store, and DE from Bumper to Bumper works well for me. Good luck.

 

[M. Frary]

I used to fret about the soil that everyone was using and how we couldn't get it in Canada. Now I just use what I can find locally and the trees seem happy.

Me too but once I found the floor dry I knew everything was going to be OK.

 

[wireme]

Pierre, what size pumice would you prefer?

 

[PierreR]

I was thinking around 3/16-1/4"ish? A tad over would be fine as well.

Mike, I'm gonna geab a sack of the stuff I questioned to start this thread.

twarwara, I think that Profile is what that dude was talking about. There seem to be 2 sizes, one for greens, the other is for fairways if I have selected the correct item from their site. It is supposed to be a larger grain. Two colors, natural and dark green.