Cation exchange capacity and water retention rates list

[KennedyMarx]

I remember coming across some numbers from a bonsai magazine, I think, that had the CECs and water retention rates for different bonsai soil ingredients. Does anyone have this saved by chance?

 

[clic8991]

Kennedy,
I found this in a post you made about turface in April. I think this is probably what you mean:

http://bonsainut.com/forums/showthread.php?10444-Dry-Turface-water-resistant/page6


I ran across this chart in Journal of American Bonsai Society Vol 43 #4 2009 page 6. The talk about ability to hold fertilizer made me look this up to see the CEC (cation-exchange capacity ) of various materials.

CEC pH water retention
Kiryu River sand 11.7 5 low
coarse sand 0 7 low
Perlite 1.5-3.5 6.5-7.9 low
akadama 31.4 6.5-6.9 high
red lava rock 10-30? 6 med
haydite/calcinated clay 15-40 7 med
decomposed granite 1-15 6.5-7 med
pumice 15 7-7.5 low
Kanuma 62 6.4 high
Turface 33 n med
pine bark 53-100 4-5.1 high
charcoal >200 6.7-9.7 low
sphagnum peat 100-180 3.9-4.9 high

 

[Smoke]

Kennedy,
I found this in a post you made about turface in April. I think this is probably what you mean:

http://bonsainut.com/forums/showthread.php?10444-Dry-Turface-water-resistant/page6


I ran across this chart in Journal of American Bonsai Society Vol 43 #4 2009 page 6. The talk about ability to hold fertilizer made me look this up to see the CEC (cation-exchange capacity ) of various materials.

CEC pH water retention
Kiryu River sand 11.7 5 low
coarse sand 0 7 low
Perlite 1.5-3.5 6.5-7.9 low
akadama 31.4 6.5-6.9 high
red lava rock 10-30? 6 med
haydite/calcinated clay 15-40 7 med
decomposed granite 1-15 6.5-7 med
pumice 15 7-7.5 low
Kanuma 62 6.4 high
Turface 33 n med
pine bark 53-100 4-5.1 high
charcoal >200 6.7-9.7 low
sphagnum peat 100-180 3.9-4.9 high

Can anyone with a modecum of common sense look at that chart and tell me what stands out?

 

[berobinson82]

Exactly one product with a neutral ph

 

[Mellow Mullet]

I guess what stands out, to me, is that it is common sense. Sand and rocks are inert and poor absorbers of liquid. The rest, not being hard, non porous minerals, will hold a little water. The pH goes down as the amount of carbonate or organic the substance contains goes up. No-brainer.

John

 

[crust]

Charcoal--yes, charcoal

 

[Smoke]

I guess what stands out, to me, is that it is common sense. Sand and rocks are inert and poor absorbers of liquid. The rest, not being hard, non porous minerals, will hold a little water. The pH goes down as the amount of carbonate or organic the substance contains goes up. No-brainer.

John

Almost there....one more

 

[edprocoat]

Its all greek too me, but why does pumice have a low water retention rate and lava has a medium one.

ed

 

[Mellow Mullet]

You have me intrigued, Al, and it seems that there might be something important to be gained from this.

I notice also by looking at the chart, that all of the componets, with the exception of the organics and the kanuma have relatively low CEC, so you must fertilize, fertilize, fertilize..... especially, if your soil is low on organics, right?

John

 

[Smoke]

You have me intrigued, Al, and it seems that there might be something important to be gained from this.

I notice also by looking at the chart, that all of the componets, with the exception of the organics and the kanuma have relatively low CEC, so you must fertilize, fertilize, fertilize..... especially, if your soil is low on organics, right?

John

bingo......

 

[Poink88]

Looks like I will be adding more charcoal in my mix now than I originally planned. No need to waste fertilizer.

 

[Mellow Mullet]

Whew! Felt like I was in 7th grade geometry and the teacher had just asked me to tell her the pythagorean theorem...

 

[nathanbs]

Whew! Felt like I was in 7th grade geometry and the teacher had just asked me to tell her the pothagorean therom...

good thing they weren't asking you to spell it

 

[Mellow Mullet]

Yeah, you're right, I probably could have used that analogy, also. LOL. I deserve that one. Stupid brain and fingers!!!

I doesn't take but a few seconds to make an ass of one's self. For inquiring minds, it is "pythagorean theorem".

That is the last time I post while talking on the phone, as others are having a conversation behind me. Too much input.

John

 

[Mellow Mullet]

If anyone is interested, I cleaned up the chart and made it more readable. I also looked up the pH of Turface, the range given by the manufacturer is 6.0, +/- 2, which is an awfully big range.

http://bonsainut.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=46899&stc=1&d=1389832144

 

[barrosinc]

If anyone is interested, I cleaned up the chart and made it more readable. I also looked up the pH of Turface, the range given by the manufacturer is 6.0, +/- 2, which is an awfully big range.

http://bonsainut.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=46899&stc=1&d=1389832144

Interesting stuff!
Peat seems like a really good substrate... what is bad about it? Acidity and may rot?

 

[Stan Kengai]

Interesting stuff!
Peat seems like a really good substrate... what is bad about it? Acidity and may rot?

The first problem with peat is that when it is dry, it is EXTREMELY difficult to wet. The second is the fact that here in the US, we can only get it finely milled and far too small for bonsai. Walter Pall, Morten Albek and other Europeans use it, but they can get it in larger "chunks" that they call coarse peat. If you can get it coarse, you might want to try it.

 

[ABCarve]

The first problem with peat is that when it is dry, it is EXTREMELY difficult to wet. The second is the fact that here in the US, we can only get it finely milled and far too small for bonsai. Walter Pall, Morten Albek and other Europeans use it, but they can get it in larger "chunks" that they call coarse peat. If you can get it coarse, you might want to try it.

What about the stuff they use for orchids...long fibered sphagnum chopped up? I use it for top dressing.

 

[Stan Kengai]

What about the stuff they use for orchids...long fibered sphagnum chopped up? I use it for top dressing.

That's sphagnum moss, not peat. I use the moss as a top dressing and as a 5% soil component for quince in development (since pine bark, my normal organic component, is more likely to have nematodes).

 

[0soyoung]

Can anyone with a modecum of common sense look at that chart and tell me what stands out?

You have me intrigued, Al, and it seems that there might be something important to be gained from this.

I notice also by looking at the chart, that all of the componets, with the exception of the organics and the kanuma have relatively low CEC, so you must fertilize, fertilize, fertilize..... especially, if your soil is low on organics, right?

John

Hell, I could have told you all that, but Al keeps putting these qulifiers on who gets to answer