Caught a bonsai bug, went crazy the end of this summer. New to forum!

youngsai

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Your posts are funny, and the perpetual summer feels like something out of aNarnia book or something . It also sounds like something that starts out magical and ends up tragic and dead, I believe the comparison to a meth addiction works great.
1) yay, meth is great, I feel like I'm in Narnia!!= your trees right now
2) yay meth is great but everyone I know is dead and my teeth are falling off= your trees next year

But don't stress it, I'm just poking alittle fun, most importantly have fun, read abunch of books on bonsai, Harry Harrington bonsai inspiration 1&2 are great books... I killed probably the first 25 plants I owned so I know where your heads at. Sorry I can't help you id the red plant, look in a field guide or type red leaf g garden plant in Google and see what pops up
 

Redwood Ryan

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My buddy and I both think trees could live in a "long summer" of at least a year, probably 2. I should have an outdoor arrangement for them by then.


Look, you can think it but it doesn't mean it can happen. We are people with horticultural skill. 2 years is definitely pushing it and they will not make it that long. Sorry, but no plants should stay indoors year round.
 

daygan

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toadmyster, I believe the wikipedia article: Dormancy (sub-topic: Trees) will be good reading for you as you develop your plans regarding how you will approach bonsai care. "Eternal summers" are possible... but they're not exactly eternal. Of particular note is the statement:

"Going through an 'eternal summer' and the resultant automatic dormancy is stressful to the plant and usually fatal."

There's a body of evidence that weighs quite heavily towards the position that not allowing a deciduous tree to experience dormancy will result in the death of the tree. This has been tested and found to be accurate. Of course, in the end, you are free to decide as you will, but you must make your decisions with open eyes, knowing and calculating the risks.

That being said, I'm sure, after all your experimentation, you'll find a way that works for you and for your trees. I wish you joy and success on your bonsai journey!
 

toadmyster223

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I've tried to identify it by those methods. I'm pretty sure it's some kind of ornamental cherry or pear or crabapple. I was hoping one of you experts would recognize it.

And no comments on the lantana, a tropical plant with no reason to perish indoors. I've seen them in Lima, which has a pretty perpetual climate. I'm confident it isn't going to die.

I realize my other plants, especially the poplar, are in danger, due to what I'm subjecting them to. I'm not doing it for ****s and giggles, I'm doing it because I haven't got a choice. You act like it's an arrogant act. According to this forums tone, I should go shell out 100 bucks on books, and just put my plants down the garbage disposal now. I've seen some pretty bad communities, but you guys perplex me. I've never been so patronized. You assumed I've got no experience with plants, no grasp on any concept regarding plants. I am really disappointed with the absolute lack of encouragement or reinforcement.

I really would like to be a part of the forum and share my ideas and others.
 
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Redwood Ryan

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I've tried to identify it by those methods. I'm pretty sure it's some kind of ornamental cherry or pear or crabapple. I was hoping one of you experts would recognize it.

And no comments on the lantana, a tropical plant with no reason to perish indoors. I've seen them in Lima, which has a pretty perpetual climate. I'm confident it isn't going to die.

I realize my other plants, especially the poplar, are in danger, due to what I'm subjecting them to. I'm not doing it for ****s and giggles, I'm doing it because I haven't got a choice. You act like it's an arrogant act. According to this forums tone, I should go shell out 100 bucks on books, and just put my plants down the garbage disposal now. I've seen some pretty bad communities, but you guys perplex me. I've never been so patronized. You assumed I've got no experience with plants, no grasp on any concept regarding plants. I am really disappointed with the absolute lack of encouragement or reinforcement.

I really would like to be a part of the forum and share my ideas and others.


Wow, chill out dude. It's just a fact that the trees that require a dormancy will die without one. We aren't "patronizing" you, we're trying to save you heartache or confusion when the plants eventually tire and die. These are trees that need a rest. They can't simply grow nonstop. You can share your ideas all you want, I'm not saying you can't. I'm just saying that we've all tried to grow outdoor plants indoors when we were beginners, but they always turned out wrong.

And no, according to this forum no one is telling you to shell out money on books. I've yet to buy a single book. I'm not trying to be discouraging, just telling you the facts of what will happen.

Slow down, read up, and think.
 

daygan

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I've tried to identify it by those methods. I'm pretty sure it's some kind of ornamental cherry or pear or crabapple. I was hoping one of you experts would recognize it.

Well, I'm certainly no expert. Identifying plants can be pretty difficult for me sometimes. Sometimes I can get in the ballpark, sometimes I'm nowhere close.

And no comments on the lantana, a tropical plant with no reason to perish indoors. I've seen them in Lima, which has a pretty perpetual climate. I'm confident it isn't going to die.

Certainly, I would think lantana, being tropical (or subtropical depending on the exact species?) would be able to survive, you're right.

I realize my other plants, especially the poplar, are in danger, due to what I'm subjecting them to. I'm not doing it for ****s and giggles, I'm doing it because I haven't got a choice. You act like it's an arrogant act.

As long as you realize this, then I'm fine with that. If by "you", you mean me, then I think perhaps you misunderstood the tone of my post. It was my understanding, based on previous posts, that you felt that giving your deciduous trees a couple years of summer would be completely without risk. I just wanted to make sure you understood the situation clearly, that's all.

I've seen some pretty bad communities, but you guys perplex me. I've never been so patronized. You assumed I've got no experience with plants, no grasp on any concept regarding plants. I am really disappointed with the absolute lack of encouragement or reinforcement.

Well, it is the internet. It's certainly not a community of people with familial bonds or any other sort of life-related relationships. Yes, it can get a little rough here sometimes. Sometimes people are just blunt or frank about their opinions, sometimes assumptions are mistakenly made, but I think for the most part people are at least trying to be helpful. There honestly are people who come to bonsai believing that perpetual summer is perfectly healthy for their deciduous trees, and so it is natural for many of us to want to make sure that those people are informed about the facts. It's natural, when we see ideas presented in that theme, for a number of us to tend towards instructive posts. If the language seems harsh, I think, for the most part, at least, the intentions are good and only meant to be helpful. If anything in my own post seemed critical or condescending, I sincerely apologize. I did not intend to convey that idea.

I really would like to be a part of the forum and share my ideas and others.

And that's what the forum is for - mutual sharing between members of the bonsai community. I hope your experience here in enjoyable and educational!
 

Paradox

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Oh boy another person that thinks he can go against the laws of nature and 1000s of years of tree evolution and biology and gets all indignant and defensive when people here try to tell him it wont work.

Good luck buddy, you're gona need it.
 

Smoke

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The fridge, might be the safest way...but not the only way.
 

toadmyster223

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Don't get me wrong, it isn't the fact being presented that I found patronizing, it was the overall tone. I understand the internet is not friendly, and I'm versed and used to it. (having owned an Audi- I thought that was the worst forum community. wrong-o) Daygan has been kind, and I don't mean to poach anyone who wasn't being bitter... that being said, Paradox, I am not even going to dignify you with a response to that remark. Go fly.
 

Paradox

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... that being said, Paradox, I am not even going to dignify you with a response to that remark. Go fly.

People here with more experience than you have tried to help you but you just arent willing to listen or youre just in denial. So why should we continue to dignify you with meaningful help? It has been our experience that people that come here with the type of attitude youve shown so far arent worth helping because they already think they know everything and just wont learn even with failure after failure.

You're in for a long, hard road and many dead trees if you refuse to realize you cant grow species that you cant provide for their basic needs given your circumstances. It doesnt matter if youre doing it because youre "forced to". The trees that need dormancy dont care if you live in an apartment. The wont adapt to "perpetual summer" no matter how much you wish them to. You wouldnt try to grow a tropical tree outside in North Dakota would you?
 
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toadmyster223

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I never said I was unwilling to listen, I'm not in denial. I cannot change my circumstances, so my interest is working around them. You're imagining these big elaborate acts of arrogance on my behalf.
 

Paradox

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You can choose to grow things that will thrive in the environment you can provide.

You will learn a lot more with less difficulty and greater success.
 

toadmyster223

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I could have, but I collected all these specimens, and that's kind of special. Plus, I accept the challenge knowingly. If my plants do die, I'm not really out of anything, and I've got so many going, I can afford to lose a few.

I am attending a welding certification class, and am going to use my spare shop time to build a nice rig to set my plants on and hang up my light and cover. I just don't have enough space where I am currently, so I'm going to build some racks to get everything up off the floor.

I've also sort of got an idea for a "winter" for them. The trees in question are pretty much all seedlings, and they're all pretty much under the impression it's spring or early summer right now. what if I build a big steel box i could fill with compost or something, and leave in a friends water house for a few months, in a few months? I could rig it up to seep a little bit of moisture and everything... would that work? The temp would hang right around 45 if i sat the box in the right place.
 

dick benbow

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To the toadmeister....in honor of your name and a new year....I offer up something visual for your avitar.
A pot photo, Dan Barton was nice enough to make for me, that your welcome to use.
Photo attached here....:)
 

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Leo in N E Illinois

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Welcome to the forum Toadmyster. I am glad to see your enthusiasm.

Lantana is certainly able to survive in tropical climates, in many equatorial regions it has become a noxious invasive weed. Some species of lantana, and hybrids with those species in their background are surprisingly cold tolerant, much more so than the books suggest. I believe you when you say it has wintered successfully in your area, Pennsylvania. From the gnarly trunk, I wager it froze to the ground most years, and what sprouted from the parts of the trunk and root crown which were buried deep enough in mulch that they did not freeze below its temperature tolerance. The taller parts of the lantana, exposed to the elements most likely died back every year.

Hemlock is a species that does not thrive in climates warmer than zone 7, it needs some 90 days at temperatures below 40 F to break down the growth inhibiting hormones produced by the late summer growth. With small seedlings you might get lucky, the first year. No reason not to try.

In the long term, for northern species you will need to figure out a storage area that chills below 40 F, and stays above 23 F. It is okay to freeze plants whose native range includes climate zones colder than zone 7. All zone 3, 4, & 5 species tolerate freezing solid over the winter if they had time to harden off and go dormant naturally in the fall. Of course freezing soils expand, there is the potential to break pots. High quality pottery & plastic won't break. Breaking of pottery is one reason many try to winter at or above 32F, but below 40F. Storage at 45 F will not work well with northern trees, such as larch, hemlock or northern pines like Jack Pine. But it will work with sub-tropical pines such as Japanese Black Pine. If the temps are cold, near 32 F, light is not really needed, though there is some small benefit if it can be provided. If you are running at 45F, evergreens will benefit significantly from having light (subdued, say 1800 ft candles) full sun in dormancy often causes damage. How and where to winter my temperate species bonsai was the hardest thing I had to learn in terms of horticulture.

Many subtropical species, such as those native to zones 7 thru 9, may actually get enough hours of chill in the autumn, if you brought them into the house late enough in the season. I suspect your azalea will survive well enough for this reason. I have done this with a Satsuki azalea or two, and it has worked. I did get better growth on the tree when I kept it cold enough to stay dormant all winter, but I think that was in part because my light garden is simply not bright enough. Keeping Satsuki cold and dormant until it is warm enough to set it outside is my current method.

Light garden. When you construct your stand, my recommendation is to plan to build it with 48 inch light fixtures in mind. I recommend either 4 or 8 lamp fixtures and I highly recommend using the T5 high output lamps. 5700K to 6700K should work fine. I personally use 8 lamp T5 fixtures and this allows good growth with the fixture mounted 40 inches above the shelf. If you use only 4 lamps, you will need to keep the fixture within 24 to 30 inches above the shelf to get roughly 1/2 sun or about 2400 foot candles of light. High light requiring plants can be set on inverted pots to get the closer to the lamps. Ficus will do excellent at the longer distance from the lamps. A good reflector really helps, I prefer the Sun Blaze reflector, a nicely focused fixture, reflecting the majority of the light straight down to the plants where we want it. Stop in at your local hydroponics store, they are great places for ideas. If you don't have a hydroponics grow shop near you, pick up a couple issues of "High Times", they always have the latest, most modern technology for under lights gardening. Light bright enough for Ganja, or Tomatoes is pretty much good enough for most trees.

Hope these ideas help and welcome to the forum.
 

Eric Group

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How did you find a Lantana that grew in a flower bed in Pennsylvania ? They are tropical, USDA zones 8-9 at best. That is a fairly old one judging by the trunk it has to be at least 5 years old or so. They die in the cold.

ed

They are not tropical! They grow here in SC just fine, lose their leaves in the winter, survive freezing temps no problem....
 
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The burgundy colored one might be a type of dogwood. Not the normal shape of a dogwood but close in color. Let me know if you find out what it is because I have a little one the same size that was by the grill.
 
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