Chinese Juniper first pruning, cutting back too much? Also styling advices needed

[zizz]

Hello! I'm pretty new to bonsai and after my JBP died, I did more research on proper care, and went grabbed some more, including this chinese juniper, along with chinese elm and larch.

Today I decided to give it a good clean up as it's pretty overgrown (first image), it's my first time to actually practice big pruning like this, other than a bit of a clip on the elm.

Here are my questions:
1. Am I cutting off too much foliage? I know many people say do not cut off more than 50% of the overall mass, so I'm a bit concerned.
2. Is it the right move to leave the remaining foliages long like this? I'm a bit scared to cut it back further, and maybe leave it that way will thicken the branches a bit overtime?
3. How to move forward in terms of styling, initially I was thinking going towards cascade or semi cascade, but after pruning, I'm not really sure anymore. I do have aluminum wires in different thicknesses, but I'm trying to get an idea first before wiring it up.

Please share your thoughts, thanks for reading.

 

[Brain Treez]

Check out Bonsaify's many videos on junipers. I found this one particularly helpful when I was just starting out:

The nice thing about junipers is that as long as you can find an interesting trunk line in there, you can always develop more branches in time.

 

[zizz]

Check out Bonsaify's many videos on junipers. I found this one particularly helpful when I was just starting out:

The nice thing about junipers is that as long as you can find an interesting trunk line in there, you can always develop more branches in time.

Thanks! I did watch many of his videos, super helpful, along with Tony's and Growing Bonsai by Jelle.
Any thoughts on how bad I screwed up in terms of cutting too much foliage off?

 

[e~b]

I'm sure that more experienced members will jump in (maybe Jelle himself - @leatherback ), but here is a beginner's take:

I think you removed an appropriate amount of foliage, assuming you can properly care for the tree in the meantime. The better question is whether you pruned the 'correct' foliage. It looks like you pruned from the inside and worked outwards, leaving only the thickest branches and foliage at the tips. This creates the "pom pom" look that we usually try to avoid. I'd try to leave some interior branching/foliage and instead prune from the outside in.

 

[zizz]

I'm sure that more experienced members will jump in (maybe Jelle himself - @leatherback ), but here is a beginner's take:

I think you removed an appropriate amount of foliage, assuming you can properly care for the tree in the meantime. The better question is whether you pruned the 'correct' foliage. It looks like you pruned from the inside and worked outwards, leaving only the thickest branches and foliage at the tips. This creates the "pom pom" look that we usually try to avoid. I'd try to leave some interior branching/foliage and instead prune from the outside in.

Hi thanks for the reply!
I worked my way up the tree, as there were a lot of branches growing inwards and overly thick, so I thought keeping them there won't do any good. I do think the mistake I had was to remove back buddings on the tree, there were some on the main braches and I took off some of them, which is sadly a bad move...

 

[Japonicus]

I think you removed an appropriate amount of foliage, assuming you can properly care for the tree in the meantime. The better question is whether you pruned the 'correct' foliage. It looks like you pruned from the inside and worked outwards,

Agreed

However keeping the natural apical leader is crucial at this time. The rest of the branches are fair game to consider for working inwards unless a repot is next consideration in the development.

@zizz some of the "oversized branches" you said you removed should've been considered for future new trunk. Not that they'd ever been used that way, but considered for. Also considered for jinning rather than flush shoulder cut.

At this point i would just fertilise well including fish emulsion which juniper responds well to, and bring it back to previous amount of foliage then procede. It should be ready to wire in Autumn then clean underneath the branches any downwards growing foliage. I think it will be just fine as you learn to care for it.

 

[Shibui]

1. Am I cutting off too much foliage? I know many people say do not cut off more than 50% of the overall mass, so I'm a bit concerned.

No problem with what you have done. 50% recommendation is very conservative. Healthy junipers will easily cope with 75% reduction and more.

2. Is it the right move to leave the remaining foliages long like this? I'm a bit scared to cut it back further, and maybe leave it that way will thicken the branches a bit overtime?

Leaving the growing ends on the tree is a very smart move, especially with Junipers. Those long tips are best at helping the tree recover from any setback. Allowing those ends to grow will help thicken the branches but I'm not sure you want those branches any thicker. They are already getting close to same thickness as the trunk in places. I would be trying to find ways to thicken the trunk more if possible.
@Japonicus advice to consider any branch as a possible replacement trunk is very sound. Newbies tend to look only at the existing trunk and end up with a long, thin trunk line with little taper. Removing the main trunk and using a side branch as a new trunk usually reduces height, adds taper into the new trunk and often adds more interesting bends that wiring can achieve. It is used when developing both conifers and deciduous bonsai.

How to move forward in terms of styling, initially I was thinking going towards cascade or semi cascade, but after pruning, I'm not really sure anymore. I do have aluminum wires in different thicknesses, but I'm trying to get an idea first before wiring it up.

Cascade and semi-cascade are styles many newbies try but it is quite hard to get really good trees in those styles.
If you still want to explore cascade styles you'll need to check the rootage first. Cascade or semi will require the trunk to be tilted one way or the other to achieve the necessary trunk line. The roots on your tree might allow such a tilt or that might put half the roots up in the air and bury the best roots , neither of which are desirable.

Informal upright is usually the easiest to achieve so I would work with what you have unless you have a pressing reason to have a cascade tree.

For now I would give the tree a rest from further work to allow it to recover from the first shock. In a few months you could start reducing the longer tips to make the remaining branches more compact and maybe force some interior growth.

 

[Shibui]

1. Am I cutting off too much foliage? I know many people say do not cut off more than 50% of the overall mass, so I'm a bit concerned.

No problem with what you have done. 50% recommendation is very conservative. Healthy junipers will easily cope with 75% reduction and more.

2. Is it the right move to leave the remaining foliages long like this? I'm a bit scared to cut it back further, and maybe leave it that way will thicken the branches a bit overtime?

Leaving the growing ends on the tree is a very smart move, especially with Junipers. Those long tips are best at helping the tree recover from any setback. Allowing those ends to grow will help thicken the branches but I'm not sure you want those branches any thicker. They are already getting close to same thickness as the trunk in places. I would be trying to find ways to thicken the trunk more if possible.
@Japonicus advice to consider any branch as a possible replacement trunk is very sound. Newbies tend to look only at the existing trunk and end up with a long, thin trunk line with little taper. Removing the main trunk and using a side branch as a new trunk usually reduces height, adds taper into the new trunk and often adds more interesting bends that wiring can achieve. It is used when developing both conifers and deciduous bonsai.

How to move forward in terms of styling, initially I was thinking going towards cascade or semi cascade, but after pruning, I'm not really sure anymore. I do have aluminum wires in different thicknesses, but I'm trying to get an idea first before wiring it up.

Cascade and semi-cascade are styles many newbies try but it is quite hard to get really good trees in those styles.
If you still want to explore cascade styles you'll need to check the rootage first. Cascade or semi will require the trunk to be tilted one way or the other to achieve the necessary trunk line. The roots on your tree might allow such a tilt or that might put half the roots up in the air and bury the best roots , neither of which are desirable.

Informal upright is usually the easiest to achieve so I would work with what you have unless you have a pressing reason to have a cascade tree.

For now I would give the tree a rest from further work to allow it to recover from the first shock. In a few months you could start reducing the longer tips to make the remaining branches more compact and maybe force some interior growth.

 

[leatherback]

Any thoughts on how bad I screwed up in terms of cutting too much foliage off?

I do not think you cut off too much. Styling a tree requires removing foliage. And the rbanches that you left are lush ith foliage and healthy.

There is very little inner foliage left, which I wonder was the only option. On some of the main branches it seems like you removed potentially good branches at the base. I personally take a slower approach with thinning out, leaving more branches, and as I prune, have a rough direction for the styling in mind, so I can evaluate each branch against the future direction.

As mentioned, no cuts flush with the trunks on species that do not heal over well. .

But.. This tree will live, grow and offer options for styling.

I was thinking going towards cascade or semi cascade, but after pruning,

This is of course still an option, and I think the strong bend in the trunk makes you think in that direction. However, the rootbase to me tells a different story.
If you look at image 4 I think you have a decent enough tree which with a little bit of wiring and positioning of foliage would get you started.

Also, keen in mind that trees can change appearance over the years as your taste changes. This little juniper has been reshaped so frequently, it is not funny. Also a sign for me that I should probably pass this on to someone else, as I seemingly do not like this tree too much. And it has never become a really cool little tree, even though I have had it for over a decade.

 

[zizz]

Agreed

However keeping the natural apical leader is crucial at this time. The rest of the branches are fair game to consider for working inwards unless a repot is next consideration in the development.

@zizz some of the "oversized branches" you said you removed should've been considered for future new trunk. Not that they'd ever been used that way, but considered for. Also considered for jinning rather than flush shoulder cut.

At this point i would just fertilise well including fish emulsion which juniper responds well to, and bring it back to previous amount of foliage then procede. It should be ready to wire in Autumn then clean underneath the branches any downwards growing foliage. I think it will be just fine as you learn to care for it.

Thanks for reassuring!
At the moment, my feeding routine for my trees is: Westland organic seaweed once a month (followed the instructed ratio), few biogolds on top of the soil.
After some reccomendations and some digging, I'm planning to add fish hydrolysate or emulsion depends which one I can find in the UK, and humic acid.
So ideally, my future routine will be: keep using biogolds as they will be slowly released into the soil everytime I water; seaweed, fish and humic acid mixed with water, feed once a month, and occasional foliar spray with humic acid.
My question is, will that routine be too strong for the trees, or should I use the seaweed fish humic acid mix twice a month? if it sounds good I will go ahead and make some purchases, please share your thoughts, thanks again.

 

[zizz]

No problem with what you have done. 50% recommendation is very conservative. Healthy junipers will easily cope with 75% reduction and more.

Leaving the growing ends on the tree is a very smart move, especially with Junipers. Those long tips are best at helping the tree recover from any setback. Allowing those ends to grow will help thicken the branches but I'm not sure you want those branches any thicker. They are already getting close to same thickness as the trunk in places. I would be trying to find ways to thicken the trunk more if possible.
@Japonicus advice to consider any branch as a possible replacement trunk is very sound. Newbies tend to look only at the existing trunk and end up with a long, thin trunk line with little taper. Removing the main trunk and using a side branch as a new trunk usually reduces height, adds taper into the new trunk and often adds more interesting bends that wiring can achieve. It is used when developing both conifers and deciduous bonsai.


Cascade and semi-cascade are styles many newbies try but it is quite hard to get really good trees in those styles.
If you still want to explore cascade styles you'll need to check the rootage first. Cascade or semi will require the trunk to be tilted one way or the other to achieve the necessary trunk line. The roots on your tree might allow such a tilt or that might put half the roots up in the air and bury the best roots , neither of which are desirable.

Informal upright is usually the easiest to achieve so I would work with what you have unless you have a pressing reason to have a cascade tree.

For now I would give the tree a rest from further work to allow it to recover from the first shock. In a few months you could start reducing the longer tips to make the remaining branches more compact and maybe force some interior growth.

Thanks for your detailed reply and the reassurance because I was worried that I cut too much off and kill the tree.

As you have stated, I did notice that some branches are already pretty thick, there is a branch on the main trunk (last pic on the left side), hoping it will help to thicken the main in time, and hoping to have to back buddings again so I will have more options in the future, I'm well aware of my mistake of removing many smaller branches and back buddings after the prune, it's a real newbie moment.

In terms of style, after many have pointed out, I think I will go with what the tree is offering which is informal upright.

 

[zizz]

I do not think you cut off too much. Styling a tree requires removing foliage. And the rbanches that you left are lush ith foliage and healthy.

There is very little inner foliage left, which I wonder was the only option. On some of the main branches it seems like you removed potentially good branches at the base. I personally take a slower approach with thinning out, leaving more branches, and as I prune, have a rough direction for the styling in mind, so I can evaluate each branch against the future direction.

As mentioned, no cuts flush with the trunks on species that do not heal over well. .

But.. This tree will live, grow and offer options for styling.

This is of course still an option, and I think the strong bend in the trunk makes you think in that direction. However, the rootbase to me tells a different story.
If you look at image 4 I think you have a decent enough tree which with a little bit of wiring and positioning of foliage would get you started.

Also, keen in mind that trees can change appearance over the years as your taste changes. This little juniper has been reshaped so frequently, it is not funny. Also a sign for me that I should probably pass this on to someone else, as I seemingly do not like this tree too much. And it has never become a really cool little tree, even though I have had it for over a decade.

Hi Jelle! Thank you for reassuring in terms of the amount of foliage I have removed, knowing that my tree is less likely to die.

As I have mentioned above, I did make some mistakes and regretting them, but on the positive side, at least I know what not to do in the future, especially when realised that I shouldn't remove that much inner foliage, and I can make jins instead of simply removing the branches, lesson learnt.

In terms of stlying, at the moment I will lean towards informal upright and see as the tree regain vigour, when more back budding is happening, I should have more options in the future, as you said, tastes will change over time especially the more trees I see, the more I will learn about what's considered to be desirable and what's not.

By the way, I think that juniper you have is really good looking, but considering how many trees you have in your collection, I can see why you started to lose interest in this one haha.

Lastly, in terms of fert, I posted a reply above about my future plan, any advices and suggestions will be really appreciated.

 

[leatherback]

fertilizing is very personal. I use relatively little fertilizer I think. So probably not the best to make recommendations Just fertilized all mytrees this week as the heat broke, and I have a 1liter cntainer with organic pellets, which was enough for all trees

 

[zizz]

fertilizing is very personal. I use relatively little fertilizer I think. So probably not the best to make recommendations Just fertilized all mytrees this week as the heat broke, and I have a 1liter cntainer with organic pellets, which was enough for all trees

Thanks! I did some research, and it's getting deeper and deeper like rabbit hole

 

[leatherback]

Thanks! I did some research, and it's getting deeper and deeper like rabbit hole

Do not watch the 2 videos on my YT channel else you sink in too deep to escape

 

[zizz]

Do not watch the 2 videos on my YT channel else you sink in too deep to escape

Man, too late, I watched them before and again today

 

[Joe Dupre']

I've come to the realization that you prune, not for today, but for 1,2 or 3 years in the future. I think you did enough and not too much. Now just feed it and water it and let it grow.

 

[zizz]

I've come to the realization that you prune, not for today, but for 1,2 or 3 years in the future. I think you did enough and not too much. Now just feed it and water it and let it grow.

Thanks for the reply! Glad I didn't screw up too much. Yes I've keeping my eyes on it, just gave it a good seaweed cocktail hopefully that will aid its recovery

 

[99 Mile Creek]

Hello! I'm pretty new to bonsai and after my JBP died, I did more research on proper care, and went grabbed some more, including this chinese juniper, along with chinese elm and larch.

Today I decided to give it a good clean up as it's pretty overgrown (first image), it's my first time to actually practice big pruning like this, other than a bit of a clip on the elm.

Here are my questions:
1. Am I cutting off too much foliage? I know many people say do not cut off more than 50% of the overall mass, so I'm a bit concerned.
2. Is it the right move to leave the remaining foliages long like this? I'm a bit scared to cut it back further, and maybe leave it that way will thicken the branches a bit overtime?
3. How to move forward in terms of styling, initially I was thinking going towards cascade or semi cascade, but after pruning, I'm not really sure anymore. I do have aluminum wires in different thicknesses, but I'm trying to get an idea first before wiring it up.

Please share your thoughts, thanks for reading.

Looks much better with its new haircut. I don't think you took too much off. Very interesting trunk movement.

Think about where you want your tree to go from here. I'm seeing some alternating branches and back branches. Looks fine. I wouldn't be concerned.

And it has never become a really cool little tree, even though I have had it for over a decade.

I think this tree is amazing and really cool. Really, well done with it.

 

[Adamski77]

you're good... assuming you take care of this properly I don't see any problem.... here is 3 pictures of one of my junipers... first one as bought, second one after first cut, third picture recently...

... they are very resilient... but my rule is to touch them only twice a year... once in autumn/winter and once around that time of the year...