Chinese Scholar Stone

[MACH5]

This is a Chinese stone I purchased recently w/o a daiza. It has less of the quite and restrained elegance of the Furuya one I posted recently. However, it is in some ways more dramatic and possesses greater movement. Wonderful grey/black color that's contrasted sharply with the bright white quartz mineral suggestive of snow patches slowly melting away within the valleys of the mountain range. It is 10" wide x 4.5 deep x 4" high.

Along with a daiza, I'd like to get a kiri wood storage box made for it as well.

 

[LanceMac10]

 

[thumblessprimate1]

Suh weet!

 

[Giga]

Who knew a rock is so inspiring. I'm not much for this aspect of bonsai but I def can appreciate it.

 

[thumblessprimate1]

"They're minerals!"

 

[MACH5]

Who knew a rock is so inspiring. I'm not much for this aspect of bonsai but I def can appreciate it.

Yes that's where I was a little while ago without giving it much thought. Then the clouds opened and BAM it hit me!

These "mere" rocks can indeed be so powerfully suggestive that they can transport you. But I also think that too many of these rocks are passed or presented as suiseki that to me they are just a lump of rock.

 

[barrosinc]

How much modification do they do to these rocks? Because that looks really really cool... almost as if sculpted.
Do they at least cut the bottom flat? Do they separate these from a larger rock?

 

[thumblessprimate1]

@markyscott How are these stones formed in nature?

 

[MACH5]

How much modification do they do to these rocks? Because that looks really really cool... almost as if sculpted.
Do they at least cut the bottom flat? Do they separate these from a larger rock?

Max, yes I was told this was cut from the corner of a larger rock. There are some stones that have been carved. I have looked carefully at this one, even with a magnifying glass, and have not seen any evidence of human manipulation except perhaps a polishing machine. Then again I am not an expert. I have sent detailed photos to Sean Smith who seems to agree. I am sending the actual stone to him to evaluate it and possibly then make a daiza for it.

 

[watchndsky]

View attachment 155872

the correct caption is "i find your lack of faith disturbing"

sorry - couldnt help myself

 

[chansen]

@markyscott How are these stones formed in nature?

I can't speak for the chinese style stone here, but the furuya stone is limestone. Mach was right, they form upside down in the ground (the bottom of the stone faces up under ground). The excess material at the bottom of the stone is likely clay.

When the limestone underground is subjected to acidic water (rotting leaves, etc.), it etches away portions of the stone. So really, those stones are kinda like stalagtites, except they aren't formed by the deposit of new material but removal of existing material. The Italian palombino stones are the same. In those cases, the bottom of the stone is flat since it was facing up in nature, and the rest of the stone was etched away as the water ran down the sides.

I'd imagine if the chinese stone was not worked, it was the result of a similar process. Cutting the bottom of a stone is sometimes done, and sometimes accepted, depending on a lot of things. Interestingly, there are some extremely valuable stones that were obviously cut and worked, but their age and provenance (and they are really awesome looking stones) are primary contributors to their value.

 

[chansen]

Max, yes I was told this was cut from the corner of a larger rock. There are some stones that have been carved. I have looked carefully at this one, even with a magnifying glass, and have not seen any evidence of human manipulation except perhaps a polishing machine. Then again I am not an expert. I have sent detailed photos to Sean Smith who seems to agree. I am sending the actual stone to him to evaluate it and possibly then make a daiza for it.

You'll be really happy with Sean's work. Are you planning a Japanese or Chinese style seat for it?

 

[MACH5]

I can't speak for the chinese style stone here, but the furuya stone is limestone. Mach was right, they form upside down in the ground (the bottom of the stone faces up under ground). The excess material at the bottom of the stone is likely clay.

When the limestone underground is subjected to acidic water (rotting leaves, etc.), it etches away portions of the stone. So really, those stones are kinda like stalagtites, except they aren't formed by the deposit of new material but removal of existing material. The Italian palombino stones are the same. In those cases, the bottom of the stone is flat since it was facing up in nature, and the rest of the stone was etched away as the water ran down the sides.

I'd imagine if the chinese stone was not worked, it was the result of a similar process. Cutting the bottom of a stone is sometimes done, and sometimes accepted, depending on a lot of things. Interestingly, there are some extremely valuable stones that were obviously cut and worked, but their age and provenance (and they are really awesome looking stones) are primary contributors to their value.

Thank you Christian for adding the detailed info on the Furuya stones. I have become a bit obsessed with them in particular. In terms of cutting the bottom of a stone, I myself think it's acceptable as long as it enhances the composition and thus the appreciation a given stone. It seems to me that many are cut particularly those that depict mountain scenes. However, adding, painting, chiseling and/or manipulating them in any fashion elsewhere I think defeats the purpose of suiseki. Another highly debated subject.

 

[MACH5]

You'll be really happy with Sean's work. Are you planning a Japanese or Chinese style seat for it?

I agree, I think Sean is a solid choice here. Good question and not sure. I assume Chinese dai for the most part are more complex? I think this stone aside from the fact that it is Chinese, I believe it may look best with something slightly more detailed? So I am thinking going with a Chinese style dai here? I would like to ask Sean what he thinks. Thoughts?

 

[chansen]

I agree, I think Sean is a solid choice here. Good question and not sure. I assume Chinese dai for the most part are more complex? I think this stone aside from the fact that it is Chinese, I believe it may look best with something slightly more detailed? So I am thinking going with a Chinese style dai here? I would like to ask Sean what he thinks. Thoughts?

I would definitely go with a Chinese style seat (I can't remember the Chinese name for them... diaza is the Japanese term. I'll post it if I find it). The stone is definitely not in a Japanese style. Japanese style stones tend to be more subtle, where Chinese style stones have more... movement(?). Not sure that's the right word. I don't really have a great way of describing the differences, but think bonsai vs. penjing. Similar concept. If you want to know more, Kemin Hu has some great books on Chinese stones. Also, the book World's Within Worlds, the Richard Rosenblum Collection of Chinese Scholar's Rocks is wonderful. It's essentially a catalog of his collection.

In either case, Sean would definitely be a good sounding board. When I lived back in Virginia, I became acquainted with a few of the folks heavily involved in the Potomac Viewing Stone Group, and a couple of them were some of Sean's very first clients. I saw his work first hand, and it was great.

Both of the stones you've acquired are wonderful.

 

[StoneCloud]

This stone is amazing. Most to me are boring, but this one is captivating.

 

[chansen]

Thank you Christian for adding the detailed info on the Furuya stones. I have become a bit obsessed with them in particular. In terms of cutting the bottom of a stone, I myself think it's acceptable as long as it enhances the composition and thus the appreciation a given stone. It seems to me that many are cut particularly those that depict mountain scenes. However, adding, painting, chiseling and/or manipulating them in any fashion elsewhere I think defeats the purpose of suiseki. Another highly debated subject.

I share the love of furuya stones. The Italian limestones are more readily available, and very similar so I've gravitated to them.

From what I remember, one of the previous emperors of Japan declared the furuya stones national treasures, and therefore they all belonged to him. So I guess you have royal taste .

 

[MACH5]

I would definitely go with a Chinese style seat (I can't remember the Chinese name for them... diaza is the Japanese term. I'll post it if I find it). The stone is definitely not in a Japanese style. Japanese style stones tend to be more subtle, where Chinese style stones have more... movement(?). Not sure that's the right word. I don't really have a great way of describing the differences, but think bonsai vs. penjing. Similar concept. If you want to know more, Kemin Hu has some great books on Chinese stones. Also, the book World's Within Worlds, the Richard Rosenblum Collection of Chinese Scholar's Rocks is wonderful. It's essentially a catalog of his collection.

In either case, Sean would definitely be a good sounding board. When I lived back in Virginia, I became acquainted with a few of the folks heavily involved in the Potomac Viewing Stone Group, and a couple of them were some of Sean's very first clients. I saw his work first hand, and it was great.

Both of the stones you've acquired are wonderful.

Yes there is something very Chinese about this stone. I think it has to do with the accentuated peaks whereas in Japanese stones they tend to be softer. The detail is also really nice but not nearly as fine as in the ones from Japan specially Furuya. It has a decidedly right to left movement even more apparent in person.

Thanks for all the book references. I will definitely check them out!

 

[MACH5]

I share the love of furuya stones. The Italian limestones are more readily available, and very similar so I've gravitated to them.

From what I remember, one of the previous emperors of Japan declared the furuya stones national treasures, and therefore they all belonged to him. So I guess you have royal taste .

Here is an excerpt taken from an article on Furuya stones:

"The Kishu clan, one of the three branches of the Tokugawa shogunate, maintained control of this region and restricted the harvest of Furuya stones through the Edo period until 1871 when the feudal system was abolished by the new Meiji government. Prior to this, villagers who found a Furuya stone were required to turn it over to the clan. According to Sen-En-Eyo, a special office/officer was assigned to manage Furuya stones for the ruling clan. The Kishu clan used Furuya stones as special gifts to the shogunate and other feudal clans. Members of the literati were the only people allowed to own Furuya stones."


This ban was lifted in 1871. Mera Hekisai, a doctor, became one of the first to search and collect them avidly and built a personal collection of about 1000 pieces. So... although there may be a chance that my Furuya stone may have been in the hands of the shogunate at one point, it is also reasonable to think that it may have been collected afterwards. Unfortunately there are no records of age on my stone...


... but my mama always said I had good taste!


BTW, from what I've seen, some of the Italian stones specially the Palombino ones are of exceptional quality rivaling those from Japan in my humble opinion.

 

[chansen]

Here is an excerpt taken from an article on Furuya stones:

"The Kishu clan, one of the three branches of the Tokugawa shogunate, maintained control of this region and restricted the harvest of Furuya stones through the Edo period until 1871 when the feudal system was abolished by the new Meiji government. Prior to this, villagers who found a Furuya stone were required to turn it over to the clan. According to Sen-En-Eyo, a special office/officer was assigned to manage Furuya stones for the ruling clan. The Kishu clan used Furuya stones as special gifts to the shogunate and other feudal clans. Members of the literati were the only people allowed to own Furuya stones."


This ban was lifted in 1871. Mera Hekisai, a doctor, became one of the first to search and collect them avidly and built a personal collection of about 1000 pieces. So... although there may be a chance that my Furuya stone may have been in the hands of the shogunate at one point, it is also reasonable to think that it may have been collected afterwards. Unfortunately there are no records of age on my stone...


... but my mama always said I had good taste!


BTW, from what I've seen, some of the Italian stones specially the Palombino ones are of exceptional quality rivaling those from Japan in my humble opinion.

Ah, thanks for clarifying. I knew there was something to the history and stones being retained by some ruling party.