Choosing demo material

[coh]

5. Perhaps one of my best experiences as a presenter occurred in a little different situation. My partner and I did a dog and pony show demo but could not finish everything in the 2 hour time limit. After the demo...we moved everything out into a large hall and continued to work for the next several hours and for any and all to see. In this informal setting, people were comfortable enough to get close to work and ask questions. A few even helped! In the end, we had nearly as large of crowd around us as we had had during the demo...we just worked and casually talked as we took our time to finish the composition the way it should be done. Although this occurred more than 10 years ago, I still occasionally get someone remembering it fondly.
John

At the Mid Atlantic Bonsai Symposium 2 years ago, they handled the demos exactly this way...about 2 hours (or 3, I can't recall) for the "official" demo, then the artists moved to side rooms to continue working on the material for the rest of the day (or as long as they needed). Anyone interested could watch up close and personal, as you say. That was a great experience and I wish more demos were done that way.

Chris

 

[Poink88]

Good point John. I've never been to a big show so I do not really know the dynamics. I guess it is a nice crowd draw since, as you termed it...it is a dog and pony show.

The closer our symposium comes...I find myself looking forward visiting the vendor area more and excites me the most. I am weird!!! LOL

 

[johng]

The closer our symposium comes...I find myself looking forward visiting the vendor area more and excites me the most. I am weird!!! LOL

not really, I think that for most of us that is the norm, vendors area first...there is only so much good material out there...but you might still be weird

 

[Darth Tanuki]

not really, I think that for most of us that is the norm, vendors area first...there is only so much good material out there...but you might still be weird

Completely agree.

Kind regards,
Darth

 

[cascade]

Soil

Very good often overlooked points! Many don't recognize that the artists reputation is on the line, even months or more after the tree is worked on. If it dies, it is all too easy to try to blame the artist.

Do you care to comment on the soil you would like to see the demo tree in, or is that taboo on this forum?

Kind regards,
Darth

I'd prefer to see the tree planted in this soil:

http://www.schleysbonsai.com/index.php?act=viewCat&catId=6

How cool would that be..

Best,
Dorothy

 

[Vance Wood]

A potential problem with the artist working on a private individual's tree is the grumblings from the crowd about how they don't get a chance to buy raffle tickets to win the tree. Then the complaints about less revenue for the convention and why does that guy get his tree worked on (even if that guy pays the artist fee). Been there done that. Just another mind frame that needs to change. It's not about winning the raffle. It's not about banking more money for the club. It's about bonsai education and continuing to raise the bar.

Kind regards,
Darth

There is one glaring problem with raffles. More often than not, and I don't know whether it's Murphy's law at work, but you will have a world class master design a world class tree and a world class newbie who is world class deaf, dumb, blind and ignorant about any and all things bonsai win the damn thing. Most of these people spell bonsai banzai.

 

[berobinson82]

There is one glaring problem with raffles. More often than not, and I don't know whether it's Murphy's law at work, but you will have a world class master design a world class tree and a world class newbie who is world class deaf, dumb, blind and ignorant about any and all things bonsai win the damn thing. Most of these people spell bonsai banzai.

HAHA, I can forgive the phonetic error but I cringe every time I hear or read 'bonsais'.. It really grinds my gears.

 

[Vance Wood]

HAHA, I can forgive the phonetic error but I cringe every time I hear or read 'bonsais'.. It really grinds my gears.

Yeah Just don't call them cute!

 

[Walter Pall]

Perhaps I am wrong, but I think most here would agree that the traditional Demo dog and pony show is really of little benefit to anyone including the material......they can be very boring, results vary tremendously, few presenters can work and talk well at the same time, and most often the process ends up with a dead tree at some point in the future, especially if raffled off to someone without the knowledge to provide appropriate aftercare... After seeing and giving dozens and dozens of demos like this over the last 20 years I struggle to see the benefit!!!

So, my question is this...why do we keep doing them the same old way?

Some other thoughts and potential alternatives..
1. It seems like we look to Japan for everything bonsai...well...they don't do demos like this in Japan so why do we?
2. I have seen a couple European shows put several artists on the stage simultaneously...all working on different material...as most are working only one is talking to the audience.
3. Personally, I get much more insight from critiques than I do demos...of course every person is different so the critiques vary but on a whole, for me, they are always more beneficial than a demo.
4. As a presenter, I have been involved in a number of demos with multiple people(3 in my case) working on the same material...Although I admit there is as much entertainment going on as there is legitimate info be shared, we have always gotten very good feedback from the audience.
5. Perhaps one of my best experiences as a presenter occurred in a little different situation. My partner and I did a dog and pony show demo but could not finish everything in the 2 hour time limit. After the demo...we moved everything out into a large hall and continued to work for the next several hours and for any and all to see. In this informal setting, people were comfortable enough to get close to work and ask questions. A few even helped! In the end, we had nearly as large of crowd around us as we had had during the demo...we just worked and casually talked as we took our time to finish the composition the way it should be done. Although this occurred more than 10 years ago, I still occasionally get someone remembering it fondly.
6. No teacher would ever work this way on their own material...time limits, trying to be entertaining while focusing on the task at hand, pushing material beyond the limits of healthy horticulture, and then provide the material with inexperienced aftercare....they just don't work that way...

So, I ask again, WHY DO WE KEEP DOING IT THE SAME WAY?????
John

and Mr. Vader... if you are planning for the typical demo, one of the criteria I would consider for the material is the transformation value...how much will the material change...the greater the change, the greater the shock and awe potential...

EXACTLY!

Walter Pall

 

[Darth Tanuki]

Perhaps I am wrong, but I think most here would agree that the traditional Demo dog and pony show is really of little benefit to anyone including the material......they can be very boring, results vary tremendously, few presenters can work and talk well at the same time, and most often the process ends up with a dead tree at some point in the future, especially if raffled off to someone without the knowledge to provide appropriate aftercare... After seeing and giving dozens and dozens of demos like this over the last 20 years I struggle to see the benefit!!!

So, my question is this...why do we keep doing them the same old way?

Some other thoughts and potential alternatives..
1. It seems like we look to Japan for everything bonsai...well...they don't do demos like this in Japan so why do we?
2. I have seen a couple European shows put several artists on the stage simultaneously...all working on different material...as most are working only one is talking to the audience.
3. Personally, I get much more insight from critiques than I do demos...of course every person is different so the critiques vary but on a whole, for me, they are always more beneficial than a demo.
4. As a presenter, I have been involved in a number of demos with multiple people(3 in my case) working on the same material...Although I admit there is as much entertainment going on as there is legitimate info be shared, we have always gotten very good feedback from the audience.
5. Perhaps one of my best experiences as a presenter occurred in a little different situation. My partner and I did a dog and pony show demo but could not finish everything in the 2 hour time limit. After the demo...we moved everything out into a large hall and continued to work for the next several hours and for any and all to see. In this informal setting, people were comfortable enough to get close to work and ask questions. A few even helped! In the end, we had nearly as large of crowd around us as we had had during the demo...we just worked and casually talked as we took our time to finish the composition the way it should be done. Although this occurred more than 10 years ago, I still occasionally get someone remembering it fondly.
6. No teacher would ever work this way on their own material...time limits, trying to be entertaining while focusing on the task at hand, pushing material beyond the limits of healthy horticulture, and then provide the material with inexperienced aftercare....they just don't work that way...

So, I ask again, WHY DO WE KEEP DOING IT THE SAME WAY?????
John

and Mr. Vader... if you are planning for the typical demo, one of the criteria I would consider for the material is the transformation value...how much will the material change...the greater the change, the greater the shock and awe potential...

I agree with all your points. Regarding number 6, a good teacher would never push the material beyond what is appropriate. If they do it is only out of vanity and I lose respect for them. I agree transformation potential is important, but I believe educational value trumps this but it may unfortunately decrease the financial intake.

My favorite convention was years ago when Kimura came to Texas, he had very healthy, excellent material, taught a great deal as he went along and ended up with an amazing transformation. The material was raw, but we'll prepared with a lot of foliage and large enough to see from several rows back.

 

[Darth Tanuki]

There is one glaring problem with raffles. More often than not, and I don't know whether it's Murphy's law at work, but you will have a world class master design a world class tree and a world class newbie who is world class deaf, dumb, blind and ignorant about any and all things bonsai win the damn thing. Most of these people spell bonsai banzai.

This should be illegal. I believe in auctions.

Kind regards,
Darth

 

[Ross]

Vance said:

There is one glaring problem with raffles. More often than not, and I don't know whether it's Murphy's law at work, but you will have a world class master design a world class tree and a world class newbie who is world class deaf, dumb, blind and ignorant about any and all things bonsai win the damn thing. Most of these people spell bonsai banzai.

You said:

This should be illegal. I believe in auctions.

Kind regards,
Darth

Darth,
I might just be playing devil's advocate here a bit, but you have previously argued that people should learn from and use the best material available, but here you bemoan the fact that beginners sometimes win nice demo trees through raffles. I see both sides, for on one hand, the beginner is ill-prepared to deal with a nice tree, but also may be driven to learn more for the sake of the tree. At some point, can a tree be too good to learn on? So we should tell beginners that they need to invest in good material to start, but not too good? Where do you draw the line?

 

[Darth Tanuki]

Vance said:


You said:


Darth,
I might just be playing devil's advocate here a bit, but you have previously argued that people should learn from and use the best material available, but here you bemoan the fact that beginners sometimes win nice demo trees through raffles. I see both sides, for on one hand, the beginner is ill-prepared to deal with a nice tree, but also may be driven to learn more for the sake of the tree. At some point, can a tree be too good to learn on? So we should tell beginners that they need to invest in good material to start, but not too good? Where do you draw the line?

I see your point. But a specimen should not die within 3 months as often happens. I've seen it happen. More than once. These are too hard to come by and the newbie doesn't learn anything and may be so discouraged that they quit. If a tree is beyond a person's ability to keep it alive, they have no business dropping in a raffle ticket. Perhaps a good solution is to raffle the mediocre material and auction the specimens. A newbie is unlikely to invest in a specimen if they doubt their ability to take care of it. But they will drop a few bucks in a raffle so that they can get something for practically nothing.

In Japan, a newbie would hire a professional to keep the tree for them until they are ready to show it. But in the US most people wouldn't dream of letting their tree stay in somebody else's yard and then on top of it, pay them for it.

But back to your question, I do see merit in buying a piece of cr@p if you question your ability to, for example, keep a certain species in your climate, or want to try a risky technique and want to practice on disposable material. But the difference is, you go into this purchase with the knowledge that this will always be at best, a mediocre bonsai.

Kind regards,
Darth

 

[Vance Wood]

I see your point. But a specimen should not die within 3 months as often happens. I've seen it happen. More than once. These are too hard to come by and the newbie doesn't learn anything and may be so discouraged that they quit. If a tree is beyond a person's ability to keep it alive, they have no business dropping in a raffle ticket. Perhaps a good solution is to raffle the mediocre material and auction the specimens. A newbie is unlikely to invest in a specimen if they doubt their ability to take care of it. But they will drop a few bucks in a raffle so that they can get something for practically nothing.

In Japan, a newbie would hire a professional to keep the tree for them until they are ready to show it. But in the US most people wouldn't dream of letting their tree stay in somebody else's yard and then on top of it, pay them for it.

But back to your question, I do see merit in buying a piece of cr@p if you question your ability to, for example, keep a certain species in your climate, or want to try a risky technique and want to practice on disposable material. But the difference is, you go into this purchase with the knowledge that this will always be at best, a mediocre bonsai.

Kind regards,
Darth

The trouble is here that some people don't know enough to----well---know they don't know enough.